Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#171

Post by reitzensteinm » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #155

vkou wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he chose to do this by lending money at way-below-market rates to a financial dumpster fire of a company that didn't, and still doesn't have any capacity or secret technical expertise to manufacture one component of his Mars plans, which are still decades in the future? All the while, knowing that the financials of SolarCity are worse then he publiclly claimed? Pardon me, but given the personal financial gain he…

Keep your companies straight. The bonds that SpaceX bought both helped the company stay afloat, and were at above market rates. And SpaceX made money off of that. SpaceX's involvement made sense, both tentatively (in the hope that SpaceX would get technology that they want down the road) and immediately (financial returns). The deal worked out well for SpaceX. Though it didn't pan out for their eventual hopes down th…

If they were struggling to find buyers for the bonds, it was below market rate by definition.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#172

Post by HNcantBtrustd » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

When I saw the buy of solar City, I felt bad for Tesla stock owners and was angry at Musk for giving his cousins tons of money.

After the Tesla thing ends, we are going to learn about the insider trading among the elite.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#173

Post by omarforgotpwd » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

More negative news on Tesla drawn from interviews with short sellers. The journalist on this is famous for working with Jim Chanos, the short seller who was involved in exposing Enron. He is shorting Tesla and thinks it's the next Enron, and got this journalist to push his short narrative.

I don't buy it. The economics of solar are great long term, and selling it with electric cars makes a lot of sense because a) EV buyers use a lot of power, and can save a lot of money with solar b) the electric car batteries also work great for storing solar energy to use at night

What they're offering to consumers with their new $50 a month solar rental program is the ability to have a completely off the grid sustainable energy solution for your car and your home. That is huge. Have you heard about the multi-trillion dollar petroleum industry?

Also the cars drive themselves better and better every day. Go try it. It's not perfect, but the car fucking drives itself with an object detection neural net and some traffic law heuristics. It's fucking amazing. Go try it if you don't believe me

This short bet will blow up in their faces

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#174

Post by xkjkls » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

omarforgotpwd wrote: post #173

More negative news on Tesla drawn from interviews with short sellers. The journalist on this is famous for working with Jim Chanos, the short seller who was involved in exposing Enron. He is shorting Tesla and thinks it's the next Enron, and got this journalist to push his short narrative. I don't buy it. The economics of solar are great long term, and selling it with electric cars makes a lot of sense because a) EV…

> The economics of solar are great long term

Why? It seems like a flooded and commodified utility market, the opposite of something with great economics.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#175

Post by xkjkls » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

docker_up wrote: post #18

The purchase of SolarCity by Tesla was the single dumbest thing Elon Musk did and it has dire consequences for Tesla the car company. Shareholders definitely have a great chance to sue Musk because he did not do this in the best interest of his shareholders, it's in the best interest of his cousin. Co-mingling all parts of his companies (SpaceX buying SolarCity Bonds) is a huge red flag that reeks of corporate malfea…

> Shareholders definitely have a great chance to sue Musk because he did not do this in the best interest of his shareholders, it's in the best interest of his cousin.

That lawsuit already exists and is still in litigation.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#176

Post by xkjkls » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #45

docker_up wrote: post #18

The purchase of SolarCity by Tesla was the single dumbest thing Elon Musk did and it has dire consequences for Tesla the car company. Shareholders definitely have a great chance to sue Musk because he did not do this in the best interest of his shareholders, it's in the best interest of his cousin. Co-mingling all parts of his companies (SpaceX buying SolarCity Bonds) is a huge red flag that reeks of corporate malfea…

> The purchase of SolarCity by Tesla was the single dumbest thing Elon Musk did Why was it a bad move for Elon Musk? Elon Musk owned many SolarCity shares (in fact, Elon Musk was the chairman of SolarCity). If SolarCity would go bankrupt, Elon Musk would have lost a lot of money and power. Elon Musk saved SolarCity to save his own skin and money. Its not really that hard to imagine. Now Tesla shareholders, who overwh…

> Now Tesla shareholders, who overwhelmingly voted for the merger, made a big mistake. But Tesla shareholders own the company, they are allowed to make whatever decisions they want.

They voted for the merger based on Musk's claim that SolarCity had a good financial position and that they were releasing a revolutionary solar shingle product. Both of those were wrong.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#177

Post by xkjkls » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #134

docker_up wrote: post #18

The purchase of SolarCity by Tesla was the single dumbest thing Elon Musk did and it has dire consequences for Tesla the car company. Shareholders definitely have a great chance to sue Musk because he did not do this in the best interest of his shareholders, it's in the best interest of his cousin. Co-mingling all parts of his companies (SpaceX buying SolarCity Bonds) is a huge red flag that reeks of corporate malfea…

Don't even get me started on his brother (kimbal) and his multi-millionaire dollar salary to be a board member. He has zero experience in manufacturing or automobiles. Blows my mind they have allowed this go unchecked for so long. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some good things that happen via Tesla but the amount of shady deals done out in the open is mind blowing.

Tesla has the highest paid board of any Fortune 500 company.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#178

Post by edoloughlin » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #98

smacktoward wrote: post #9

This bit seems pretty damning: > As SolarCity struggled to raise money from institutional investors, it began offering individuals a chance to buy what it called Solar Bonds. (“Now you can get paid while driving the solar revolution,” the marketing material said.) But there were few takers—so other parts of the Musk empire took up the slack. According to the shareholder lawsuit, SpaceX acquired $255 million of the bo…

SpaceX's stated goal is "occupy Mars". Being able to land and deploy solar panels at scale is essential to this goal. And Musk has learned the hard way not to trust third party suppliers that he doesn't control. SpaceX's aspirational goal is to launch something Mars-wards in the 2022 window to identify where the base will be and have some resources. Then send several vehicles and a few people in 2025 to set up a miss…

SpaceX's stated goal is "occupy Mars".

Being able to land and deploy solar panels at scale is essential to this goal. And Musk has learned the hard way not to trust third party suppliers that he doesn't control

That gave me the best laugh I've had all day. Bravo! Is SolarCity going to send installers to Mars in Teslas launched on top of a Falcon Heavy?

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#179

Post by kjksf » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #130

spiderfarmer wrote: post #102

For all the negativity here about Musk and his business decisions, there is something to be said for integrating transport and energy services in one great package. I consult for a large energy conglomerate that wants to get into this market from the energy suppliers side, but the problem is that they are completely clueless when it comes to expanding beyond their traditional business. In their vision, they'll supply…

It took them two years to set up a department that sells their first product (besides gas and electricity): an outdated EV charger, from a company they bought that stopped innovating after acquisition and is now lagging behind competition. Not a car, just the charger. Two years to set up the business structure isn't that much time in the scheme of multinational conglomerates. Especially when the market isn't yet that…

> On a separate note, SolarCity stopped innovating after it was acquired

You're conflating innovation with sales.

SolarCity was a financing business more than they were a product company.

They were selling financing of solar generation via Power Purchase Agreements. Installation and equipment manufacturing was largely outsourced.

That was a business model innovation and for a while it worked splendidly, which is why SolarCity became no 1 installer of solar in US.

But the model stopped working which is why Tesla had to restructure the whole business. That's why their sales dropped: they stopped doing what they were doing.

Acquisition happened at end of 2016.

Just in recent weeks Tesla launched a "rent solar" scheme. It remains to be seen how it'll do in the marketplace, but it's a business model innovation comparable to original SolarCity innovation.

They are also working on Solar Roof - another huge innovation with great potential.

And if we're charitable, we can also throw the energy storage business in the same bucket: powerwall, powerpacks, megapacks. Winning high-profile installations and growing business at 100% YoY.

Hardly a company that stopped innovating.

Re: Elon Musk Gambled Tesla to Save SolarCity

#180

Post by infecto » Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

xkjkls wrote: post #177

infecto wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't even get me started on his brother (kimbal) and his multi-millionaire dollar salary to be a board member. He has zero experience in manufacturing or automobiles. Blows my mind they have allowed this go unchecked for so long. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some good things that happen via Tesla but the amount of shady deals done out in the open is mind blowing.

Tesla has the highest paid board of any Fortune 500 company.

It is mind blowing. Kimbal has zero relevant experience in this specific industry and he has a 6million take home comp for it. In comparison a company like GM I want to say their average is below 500k but don't quote me, it has been a while since I looked...I actually think it was closer to 300k. And this for people with very relevant industry experience.

I don't get it. Seems like a conflict of interest to me.