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Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

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Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#171

Post by pilif »

eljefe900 wrote: post #140
pilif wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no

Apple has definitely accommodated the Chinese government’s desires before: https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/19/apple-cracking-down-on-callki...

During the San Bernardino case, they have said multiple times that they cannot install software without the user entering their password.

And even if you assume a publicly traded company lying outright, what do you think is more likely: then silently backdooring the phones of people in Hongkong or pretending to have accidentally unpatched a vulnerability, hoping people would update to that OS in order for pretty obvious exploits being able to run?

If I was as evil as you make Apple out to be I would sure as hell do the former.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#172

Post by jsjohnst »

anang wrote: post #92
jsjohnst wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could make it so your mom doesn't get root by accident, but you would still have the right to do so. How? Serious, genuine question. How can they give you “the right to do so”, but prevent “mom” from accidentally doing so or worse, having someone do it to their phone without them knowing?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting something similar to “This app would like to access your camera” but for unmitigated root access. It could even be as involved as getting an official image from apple/google that allows root access. I don’t think a “mom” would accidentally download an image and flash their telephones.

> I don’t think a “mom” would accidentally download an image and flash their telephones.

Who says “mom” flashed her phone?

How does “mom” know the shady place they took their phone to repair a broken screen didn’t do it? (P.S. many documented cases of this)

How does “mom” know their jealous/cheating/whatever spouse/bf/gf/whatever didn’t do it? (P.S. many documented cases of this)

How does “mom” know the phone they bought off someone didn’t do this? (P.S. many documented cases of this)

How does “mom” know their kid didn’t do this so they could install stolen games? (P.S. many documented cases of this)

The list goes on and on.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#173

Post by read_if_gay_ »

alkonaut wrote: post #122
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it has the capacities to be one if you plugged in peripherals.

Again: that doesn't matter. My lawnmower has more power than my first 3 PC's combined and could easily play quake if connected to a keyboard and screen. Not sure what difference that makes to the original question of openness?

The point is if it were open it could do that and then it'd be a general purpose computer.

People were justifying locked down smartphones by saying they're not GP computers.

Factually, if they were open, they could be GP computers. The only reason they aren't is because they are locked in the first place! That justification for locking phones is based on a consequence of them being locked, so it doesn't make sense.

That's the difference it makes.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#174

Post by anang »

jsjohnst wrote: post #172
anang wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting something similar to “This app would like to access your camera” but for unmitigated root access. It could even be as involved as getting an official image from apple/google that allows root access. I don’t think a “mom” would accidentally download an image and flash their telephones.

> I don’t think a “mom” would accidentally download an image and flash their telephones. Who says “mom” flashed her phone? How does “mom” know the shady place they took their phone to repair a broken screen didn’t do it? (P.S. many documented cases of this) How does “mom” know their jealous/cheating/whatever spouse/bf/gf/whatever didn’t do it? (P.S. many documented cases of this) How does “mom” know the phone they bo…

These concerns all apply to existing jail breaking methods. An official image would be much easier to make obvious that it’s not the same as the non-rooted image.

In order for any of those threats to work it would require physical access and access to passwords and accounts (for example reconnecting to cloud services, restoring backups or even just unlocking the phone to perform a flash). At that point I don’t think it’s having or not having root access that is the issue.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#175

Post by dmos62 »

blantonl wrote: post #132
dmos62 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there aren't any great alternatives. The state of general computing (as parent puts it) is frustrating, and people talk about it, sometimes by switching from a related topic. It's venting. Are there more productive ways of dealing with this? Maybe; but seemingly part of the frustration is that the average consumer feels powerless. Even your meta-post could be classed as a way to deal with this frustration. And,…

but seemingly part of the frustration is that the average consumer feels powerless The average consumer could care less. They want to make phone calls, send text messages (over iMessage), surf Facebook, and take back to school pictures of their kids - and they just want it to work.

> The average consumer could care less.

You're presuming that the average consumer is uninformed, which I can understand, but it's not true in my experience. Most people I know are well aware that they're in a pickle.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#176

Post by dmos62 »

UncleMeat wrote: post #154
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need something similar to Godwin's law where anyone who argues that people don't care about something automatically loses the argument. Of course people don't care more about iPhones than their own kids. Pick just about any X and people don't care more about X than their own kids. That doesn't mean X doesn't matter, or people wouldn't care more about it if the understood it better, or wouldn't be better off if it…

If we polled all smartphone owners and asked them how much they would pay to be able to own their phone in the way that Stallman owns his computer I'd bet a large amount of money that the median would be 0 cents and the average would be less than 1 cent. This isn't just a question of caring less. The huge majority of users do not care at all about this.

What you're really getting at by suggesting we poll people on Stallman, I think, is that they're uninformed, and AnthonyMouse is dead-on where he suggests rephrasing what it means to own your high-tech stuff so that it's comprehensible to the general public.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#177

Post by alkonaut »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #173
alkonaut wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: that doesn't matter. My lawnmower has more power than my first 3 PC's combined and could easily play quake if connected to a keyboard and screen. Not sure what difference that makes to the original question of openness?

The point is if it were open it could do that and then it'd be a general purpose computer. People were justifying locked down smartphones by saying they're not GP computers. Factually, if they were open, they could be GP computers. The only reason they aren't is because they are locked in the first place! That justification for locking phones is based on a consequence of them being locked, so it doesn't make sense. T…

I disagree. I want my phone to be an appliance, just like my router and TV, even though under the hood all 3 have almost the same hardware (all 3 are ARM Linux machines). I want them to be as simple as possible, and achieve that by minimizing the control surface I have on it. My computer (that has a huge control surface) has that because I'm ready to pay the added overhead to complexity/security - but I don't want that on my phone.

"It's not a computer" by that I mean "I don't want it to be a computer" in the sense that if it had the complexity/risk of a PC I wouldn't buy it in the first place.

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#178

Post by read_if_gay_ »

alkonaut wrote: post #177
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is if it were open it could do that and then it'd be a general purpose computer. People were justifying locked down smartphones by saying they're not GP computers. Factually, if they were open, they could be GP computers. The only reason they aren't is because they are locked in the first place! That justification for locking phones is based on a consequence of them being locked, so it doesn't make sense. T…

I disagree. I want my phone to be an appliance, just like my router and TV, even though under the hood all 3 have almost the same hardware (all 3 are ARM Linux machines). I want them to be as simple as possible, and achieve that by minimizing the control surface I have on it. My computer (that has a huge control surface) has that because I'm ready to pay the added overhead to complexity/security - but I don't want th…

That's just the side you take in this openness/simplicity tradeoff and not a good reason for saying smartphones should be locked down in general. There are going to be people who want more open phones or more locked down desktops. Users should have the choice not only with their computers, but also with their phones.

That Apple and Google have taken that from the user is unfortunate and I think there's not much of a case to be made against that. All you've been saying so far boils down to: you don't want an open phone, and because Apple and Google have coincidentally made the same choice for their customers this kind of paternalism is fine by you. Kind of a short sighted position, no?

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#179

Post by terragon »

wsy wrote: post #149
worble wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people do that, that's on them. So long as the device appropriately warns people, I fail to see how it's the companies problem to baby people who don't know what they're doing. It's their device, if they want to break out, let them. It's like saying "Why should we have knives? It's only a matter of time until $popular_social_media comes along and tells people to cut off their index fingers and before long there's…

A lot of tools have safety measures which can't be circumvented by their users (e.g., you have to use both hands to start thems). The reason being that some dangers are easily underestimated, even by experienced users. Manufacturers do indeed much better about the inherent risks of their products than users. If a knive could be built which allows to cut food, and protects you from cutting off your index finger, would…

Are you really comparing an object which holds a threat of blood loss, loss of organs and possible death as requiring similar safeguards as a phone?

Re: Apple Accidentally Unpatches Vulnerability, Leading to New iOS 12.4 Jailbreak

#180

Post by alkonaut »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #178
alkonaut wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I want my phone to be an appliance, just like my router and TV, even though under the hood all 3 have almost the same hardware (all 3 are ARM Linux machines). I want them to be as simple as possible, and achieve that by minimizing the control surface I have on it. My computer (that has a huge control surface) has that because I'm ready to pay the added overhead to complexity/security - but I don't want th…

That's just the side you take in this openness/simplicity tradeoff and not a good reason for saying smartphones should be locked down in general. There are going to be people who want more open phones or more locked down desktops. Users should have the choice not only with their computers, but also with their phones. That Apple and Google have taken that from the user is unfortunate and I think there's not much of a…

No I mean it’s the obvious position to take when 99% of customers want it. For all manufacturers. If it was just 80% of customers who wanted it then it would be unfortunate if no manufacturer positioned themselves to cater to the 20% who want a “pc phone”, but since those who want it are (surely?) not even a rounding error in the statistics, I can’t see why it’s unfortunate.
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