Python Is Eating the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#171

Post by isatty » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:42 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

I know I’m responding to opinion but: developer productivity isn’t one of the pitfalls of Python.

Yes I agree that if you’re using Python for a large scale project involving lots of developers its not the best; but that’s because it doesn’t have a good type system.

You can’t work out why people like it so much because of this misconception. The languages that you gave as examples most definitely do _not_ value your productivity, it values correctness as enforced by a type system and refactoring needed for large projects.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#172

Post by j88439h84 » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:43 AM UTC

pietroglyph wrote: post #75

brainless wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you are saying but "Python has a lot of problems" is not really a list of "only" dependency management issues. Once your project is setup, dependency management is what you do once in two weeks perhaps. Rest is just writing code.

Having such a basic part of a programming language be awful is inexcusable. It's not just that it takes a lot of time; even if it took no extra time, you're still wasting extra space on your computer, risking breakage on external updates, and compromising security because you can't even tell what code you're running.

Just use Poetry. It is good. https://poetry.eustace.io

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#173

Post by kazinator » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:44 AM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #159

It's so refreshing to not see anyone here whining about Python forcing them to indent their code properly. The kind of people who think that's a PROBLEM instead of a FEATURE really should not be ever writing any new code, and instead should be punished by forcing them to maintain other people's code written with that same lazy misguided attitude, until they recognize how self indulgent, inconsiderate, and disrespectf…

The best, brightest and most informed/experienced people who do not think it is a good idea for significant whitepace to be the determiner of syntactic nesting do not hold that position because they would like to inflict badly formatted code on their maintainers. You've invented a stupendously silly strawman.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#174

Post by blaisio » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #91

hyperpallium wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a model dependency management system for some other language that addresses all these issues? Dependency hell is everywhere.

Rust's cargo, JS's yarn and the grand daddy of them all Ruby's bundler address all these issues. Even newer versions of Gradle support a workflow where you specify the versions you know you want and just on everything else, including transitive dependencies, down.

Go's new system addresses them all too.

This is the other frustrating thing: there is this stockholm syndrome effect, because people are so used to dependency management being horrible, they think there are just no good dependency management systems, and they give up.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#175

Post by joshuamorton » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:48 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #133

yongjik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. This is 2019, and I like being able to see at least three files side-by-side without squinting my eyes, thank you very much. Yes, I know I'm in the minority these days. :/

Then may I respectfully submit you or your employer should buy an appropriate monitor or you chould use two. I'm not asking for 300 character lines. A 25% increase would be a rational and sufficient nod to the fact that monitors are bigger.

I work at the same place you do. I code often enough from my macbook, using likely the same tools that you use, and they're truly painful with >80 character lines. I don't understand how Go and Java devs survive.

I also don't think an 80 character line limit is a bad thing: small well defined functions that do only one thing are good. Long lines often encourage people to want to nest code deeply (which is terrible!) or to write complex one-liners, and that + list comprehensions is a dangerous pairing.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#176

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:50 AM UTC

isatty wrote: post #171

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

I know I’m responding to opinion but: developer productivity isn’t one of the pitfalls of Python. Yes I agree that if you’re using Python for a large scale project involving lots of developers its not the best; but that’s because it doesn’t have a good type system. You can’t work out why people like it so much because of this misconception. The languages that you gave as examples most definitely do _not_ value your p…

[deleted]

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#177

Post by sammorrowdrums » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:51 AM UTC

j88439h84 wrote: post #163

KirinDave wrote: post #93

Reading this got me thinking and I wonder if other people feel like me about this, so I'm going to share it. This is not serious, but not entirely unserious... I try to be a good sport about it, but every time I write python I want to quit software engineering. It makes me angry how little it values my time. It does little for my soured disposition that folks then vehemently lecture me about the hours saved by future…

Stop using flake8. The original PEP 8 document doesn't even recommend 80 characters anymore. Pylint and mypy and black are way more useful.

Flake8 is customisable. I use it with 120 chr override.

Maybe there are good alternatives but Flake8 starts from PEP8 until you tell it otherwise.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#178

Post by bengalister » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

alwaysanon wrote: post #71

blaisio wrote: post #33

Python has a lot of problems that really slow down development, but they are all fixable. The biggest issue, in my opinion, is in dependency management. Python has a horrible dependency management system, from top-to-bottom. Why do I need to make a "virtual environment" to have separate dependencies, and then source it my shell? Why do I need to manually add version numbers to a file? Why isn't there any builtin way…

It is funny - half of the real desire/need for containers comes back to these sorts of issue with both node and Python. And then they bring in their own different challenges.

I have been programming with node for the last 3 years and I never had any dependency issues with node (at least for 3rd party dependencies). I cannot say that with python that requires using some tool be it docker or virtualenv to isolate them from the already installed ones.

Node's dependency managers npm/yarn just copy the versioned dependencies from their cache folder into the local node_modules folder and remove transitive dependencies duplicates when possible by flattening them into node_modules.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#179

Post by _bxg1 » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

deltron3030 wrote: post #155

What I find baffling is that almost every program I'm interested in as a creative power user has a Python API for scripting, from type and graphic design to 3D modeling, rendering and music making. I'm a bit into web design/frontend as well, and was thinking about either learning JS and Node more deeply, or add some other "backend language" like PHP or Ruby, and learn their frameworks like Laravel or Rails. Should I…

The data synergy of Node + Web is hard to beat, and JS is very elegant for writing asynchronous code. Also, I've found the web (canvas, svg, webgl with Three.js) to be an amazingly hackable creative platform. Just my two cents.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#180

Post by ericd » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:53 AM UTC

jbverschoor wrote: post #104

ajmurmann wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust's cargo, JS's yarn and the grand daddy of them all Ruby's bundler address all these issues. Even newer versions of Gradle support a workflow where you specify the versions you know you want and just on everything else, including transitive dependencies, down.

Yeah.. not sure why the love for Ruby faded in startup-world

Probably JS taking over web dev and invading the server.