You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#171

Post by dangus » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #97

dangus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the author just forgot about every game console existing.

You can write a game and all at once target Xbox, Playstation, Switch, PC, MacOS, and Linux. You can do physical releases. You can upload your game anywhere, even provide it for distribution on your own website. Everyone has choice in the equation. App stores are vampiric parasites and need to be dismantled. Either that, or these companies need their phone monopolies taken away.

And all those platforms have revenue sharing requirements.

You can’t distribute a Switch, PS4, or Xbox One game without giving the respective companies a cut of your sale.

Windows and Mac are the only exceptions, but you won’t get far without publishing to a digital store unless you can afford to drum up a whole lot of name recognition all on your own (also costs money unless you hit the lottery like Mojang did).

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#172

Post by edmundsauto » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

Crinus wrote: post #88

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what? Have Apple executives said anything on the matter? Even vague warnings? You're relying on your own interpretations of their intentions. Over the years, Mac's defaults have changed to protect inexperienced users via restrictions like Gatekeeper and SIP. Apple has never attempted to make any of these systems mandatory. All it takes is a few terminal commands to gain complete kernel-level access to my sys…

> Have Apple executives said anything on the matter? Even vague warnings? Because companies never lie or say that "we're not going to do XYZ" until next week/month/year where they go "XYZ is the new awesome". Expecting companies to be honest is like placing a cat near a canary and expecting them to be BFFs, especially when the topic is something that people have negative concerns about. It is MUCH better to be explic…

I tend to look at things from the lens of social capital. If I'm always yelling about something, it desensitizes them when something bad actually happens. The "boy who cried wolf" is the downside, and being explicit and loud about something that hasn't even happened and (to most people's eyes) isn't in the works... It marginalizes you. A lot.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#173

Post by _ph_ » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

auggierose wrote: post #165

_ph_ wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, this time I really don't get the downvotes. Did I say anything incorrect? If so, please correct me. If not, why am I downvoted?

Because there are many on here who consider paying $100 for being able to distribute on the App Store outrageous. They don't realise that just putting in 1 hour of your development time to create something usually costs more than that.

The point is, you don't need to pay to develop an app, you only need to pay for submitting it into the app store. So perhaps I should have added a disclaimer to my statement and not just limit it to precisely what I expressed.

I did not intend to make a statement about the submission fee.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#174

Post by chongli » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

ekc wrote: post #136

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is literally every major OS right now.... Mac, iOS, Android, Chromium, Windows.... No it's not! I can run whatever software I want on Windows, Mac, Android and Chromium. > these are proprietary, private sector companies who fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders, not government entities. I am not accusing Apple of literally breaking the first amendment. I do, however, think their actions have consequ…

> No it's not! I can run whatever software I want on Windows, Mac, Android and Chromium. Just as you can on Safari!

Just as you can on Safari!

Web applications can't do peer to peer networking, period. Nor can they interact with arbitrary hardware devices you decide to connect.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#175

Post by throwawaycert » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #160

throwawaycert wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ability to execute arbitrary code is the ability to bypass the MAS. What's more, it's nice and efficient - iOS apps in development are compiled right to x86 machine code for the "simulator" that is little more than a thin VM. 100% of the projections I've seen about MacOS becoming a walled garden have been from people that don't actually have any real familiarity with Apple's ecosystem as developers.

There are all sorts of restrictions Apple could place on software compiled "unofficially" with Xcode. For example, they could automatically sign it with testing certs that automatically expire after 7 days. macOS is a more open platform because Apple has decided to leave it that way, not because the property is literally essential for development.

They already require periodic resigning of self-signed side-loaded apps on iOS, it doesn't stop even relatively casual users.

(That's actually the funniest part about all this, now that I think about it. While everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth about some speculative possibility that macOS ends up locked down like iOS, Apple has been making iOS more open.)

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#176

Post by larkost » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

techdragon wrote: post #86

Carpetsmoker wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't allow me to buy anything on my iPhone, as I got my phone in New Zealand, have a British Revolut CC card and phone number, then was in the Netherlands for a while, and am now living in Ireland. I had to switch the region to Netherlands to install the (free) RyanAir app (why?!) which was rather annoying since then it started offering Dutch suggestions for stuff (which I don't want). I can't add my UK CC t…

From what I’ve heard, much of that kind of awkward regional nonsense is left over from the origins of iTunes as a music store which required heavy amounts of country specific logic dealing with per region restrictions as a result of licensing deals.

It is not leftover, it applies to applications as well as music and videos. Apps can price themselves per region, or even not be available outside of set regions. There can be multiple reasons for this including third party content licensing or support reasons.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#177

Post by writepub » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

bradknowles wrote: post #168

writepub wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you cited retail. In retail, there's an actual cost to stocking items, especially in areas visible to the customer. No such cost exists on the app store, in fact Apple makes you pay extra to advertise for what retailers offer for their 30%. App stores and retailers are different. There's almost no cost to list an app (for Apple, Google) and yet they charge a 30% fee. Apple, especially, is a text…

You may not see any of the behind-the-scenes costs that Apple has to pay for in supporting the ecosystem, but it is a well-known fact that Apple intentionally prices their software and services pretty close to cost, because they make their real profit on hardware sold and the software and services are just used to try to help drive hardware sales. So, that 30% cost is really just the price of doing business in this e…

> So, that 30% cost is really just the price

That's wildly inaccurate. It's easily disprovable: Apple's costs aren't proportional to the pricing of software sold through it's stores. Does your refrigerator maker charge you as 30% premium on groceries stored in the fridge, or are there limitations on what groceries you can stock there?

The app store is wildly profitable, and Apple admits as much. While I have no objection to profits, we're all here discussing the issue because it's a tool used to unfairly thwart competition, impose monopolistic & unfair trade practices, which is why the EU and supreme Court, and possibly FTC are all involved in various complaints against Apple. If your fridge maker isn't allowed to regulate your groceries, Apple shouldn't be arbitrarily blocking and price gouging apps on their platform.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#178

Post by michaelbrave » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #59

nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

You could label the same of almost any toolset. Look at rechargable tools in construction. Look at the IP protection around John Deere equipment. While none of this is especially good, it's hardly a unique problem.

I would like those examples fixed as well. There needs to be stronger rights to repair, and with that allowing for right to run software on devices. With an increasingly digital world it is becoming more and more equivalent with free speech.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#179

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #170

scarface74 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when you do a physical release - you still have to get the blessing of the console maker and pay a fee.

That is mitigated by the fact that there are so many options. Gaming is an open space with tons of competition. All of the audience isn't glued to a single platform or two controlled by a single entity. Gaming companies fight to win over gamers and developers. Not so for Apple and Google with their walled fiefdoms.

So instead of two competitors you have four (three consoles and the PC). Three of which have the same “walled garden” that Apple has but with a much larger barrier to entry and much stricter controls?

If you release a game on disc. The retailer + distributer get at least a 50% cut.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#180

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #160

throwawaycert wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ability to execute arbitrary code is the ability to bypass the MAS. What's more, it's nice and efficient - iOS apps in development are compiled right to x86 machine code for the "simulator" that is little more than a thin VM. 100% of the projections I've seen about MacOS becoming a walled garden have been from people that don't actually have any real familiarity with Apple's ecosystem as developers.

There are all sorts of restrictions Apple could place on software compiled "unofficially" with Xcode. For example, they could automatically sign it with testing certs that automatically expire after 7 days. macOS is a more open platform because Apple has decided to leave it that way, not because the property is literally essential for development.

So how would Apple enforce code signing on code that ran on top of a VM like Java or C# or scripting languages?