Assholes: A Probing Examination • Hacker News Board

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#171

Post by harryf » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #130

harryf wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh and the other thing I didn't see anyone address is teaching "victims" the right Ju-Jitsu for dealing with (intentional) assholes / bullying - the mindset of don't let anyone make you a victim. I had the "good fortune" of having an internship years ago with a tyrant. This person loved publicly shaming the interns, among a whole bunch of other toxic behaviour, continual needling etc. etc. Their life was a mess, marr…

In 2010, Dieter Zapf and Claudia Gross took 149 victims of self-described bullying at work and taught them various conflict resolution techniques and studied the results. The effect? Victims tried various strategies and even altered their strategies several times before realizing nothing worked. Many resorted to frequently skipping work, but even more resorted to fighting back with the same kind of behaviors. Eventua…

Not refuting this but I just remembered something that inspired me way back when I was an intern - the book of five rings - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings

I guess the essence of what I got from it, was if someone is attacking you, you want to observe how they’re doing it and what you think is driving them to do it. The idea I got from the Book of Five Rings is that for any type of attack there is a response that can stop the attack in a single strike. That response varies depending on the attack. But that’s how I came to group laughter being the “strike” that will usually stop the intentional asshole / office bully type.

And yes that may sound like childish, school playground stuff but often the reason someone behaves badly in an office hs it’s roots in their childhood

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#172

Post by giaour » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

The article's advice on making positivity an official part of a company's culture is great! As is the mentorship/management strategy described for fostering positive behavior in problem cases.

But firing an "unintentional asshole" over their lack of social skills seems like an easy way to be on the receiving end of lawsuit, particularly if terminated employee has a medical condition that explains the behavior in whole or in part. Firing someone with autism over their lack of social skills could land you in deep shit.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#173

Post by mbubb » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

harryf wrote: post #99

colechristensen wrote: post #77

Hello, my name is Cole and I can be an asshole. The definition posted of an asshole casts a very wide net making discussion difficult. Diversity is important and it isn't just about sex and skin color. People act differently, people have different priorities, confidence varies, life situations outside of work alters behavior as do medical conditions and treatments. Different cultures even in this country value vastly…

Oh and the other thing I didn't see anyone address is teaching "victims" the right Ju-Jitsu for dealing with (intentional) assholes / bullying - the mindset of don't let anyone make you a victim. I had the "good fortune" of having an internship years ago with a tyrant. This person loved publicly shaming the interns, among a whole bunch of other toxic behaviour, continual needling etc. etc. Their life was a mess, marr…

I like this. Recently, I semi-seriously recommended BJJ for a bullying situation. In adolescents, I see BJJ working to help kids calm down and for boys and girls to get along in a time fraught with drama. I followed my boys into BJJ and think it has something to teach adults too. When you are the victim it will make you less intimidated. When you are the asshole it gives a constructive outlet for aggression which when misdirected is a good definition of bullying. I think there are a .1% of us who are unredeemable assholoes. The rest of us are all potential assholes and we need to watch out for the conditions which make such behavior happen. And BJJ, we all need some BJJ...

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#174

Post by mbubb » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

jlg23 wrote: post #126

colechristensen wrote: post #77

Hello, my name is Cole and I can be an asshole. The definition posted of an asshole casts a very wide net making discussion difficult. Diversity is important and it isn't just about sex and skin color. People act differently, people have different priorities, confidence varies, life situations outside of work alters behavior as do medical conditions and treatments. Different cultures even in this country value vastly…

> People with Asperger's or otherwise on the autism spectrum can be huge "assholes" by the definitions here. Does autism make you unemployable? Those "smart assholes" with Asperger I know can be very nice people if being nice is rewarded. But it requires a conscious effort on their side (and fair feedback from those around them). If being an asshole is tolerated, they take the easy route of not caring. > It is good t…

wrt your edit - we can all be assholes, not-so-benevolent dictators of this and that. recognizing it as such is not toxic.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#175

Post by astine » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #143

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #138

Naive. The author has no concept of how psychologically damaging these ideas can be in the hands of a passive aggressive HR team. Put the genie back in the bottle. Values are good; they can rally a team. Feedback is good. What's missing is that feedback is never a two way street; there is always part of the company which is effectively immune from critique, by virtue of their position and rank. And this is where the…

A lesser person would have been driven into therapy. Careful there.

You seem to have taken this to mean that only weak or 'lesser' people go into therapy, but I think it's pretty clear what the OP meant: That this sort of institutional treatment is a sort of gaslighting. They convince you that because of a simple personality difference that there must be something deeply wrong with you and that you need therapy. The thing that makes someone 'lesser' in this instance is that they fail to recognize the gaslighting and stand up for their own rights.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#176

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

d--b wrote: post #103

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sounds like your boss builds a company on the assumption that people can never change. From my experience if you have a strong team with good core values it's easy to absorb and change / condition the behavior of the odd outlier. In fact that outlier will realize that they need to adapt to the new environment (and when they do you have changed that person's outlook and maybe even their mental health and insecurities)…

This is wishful thinking. Bullies may be victim of their own insecurities, but they're not that easy to change. Would you hire someone who you know is an open racist, just because he can be converted?

> Would you hire someone who you know is an open racist,

ofc not, I think some people are just terrible and no amount of good will is going to integrate them anywhere. But my point is that a strong team can absorb some people that don't seem 100% fitting on the first impression. From my personal experience many people I got on fine with initially afterward turned out to be terrible team players and turned out to be wolf in sheep clothing (and no amount of screening could have prevented that). Others were questionable but given a chance ended up holding everything together when it mattered.

IMO there is no silver bullet against weeding out toxic individuals and there is likewise no guarantee that with a binary approach by putting people into the good/bad camp some won't be thrown under the bus.

Also the most creative teams I worked with were often totally crazy mix where it's natural egos rub against another. Reading the post all my alarm bells ring. The author would be labeled under my definition of toxic, yet I'd still give him an interview knowing that he'd be surrounded by people more mature than him and potentially 15-20 years older. He wouldn't stand a chance in a group where he was the most senior from a knowledge or age pov.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#177

Post by alexozer » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

Favorite quote from the article: "It's better to have a hole in your team than an asshole."

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#178

Post by johnchristopher » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #82

johnchristopher wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People with Asperger's or otherwise on the autism spectrum can be huge "assholes" by the definitions here. Does autism make you unemployable? It's my understanding that on average it's harder to get a job and some kind of jobs look out of reach. Also, is the population ratio of Asperger/autism such that the definition of asshole should be reworded ?

The autism spectrum is wide and diagnosis isn't an exact science. ~1-3% or 1:30 to 1:100 rates are at the right scale. Autism is easy to point at to make one think the response to "assholes" should be thought through more carefully. There are many others, not always as easy.

I see.

Yet, I am not ready to believe every asshole I met were undiagnosed people with autism or Asperger though.

It's way over 1:100 or even 1:30.

Also, I believe assholes have a different set of intentions than people with autism or Asperger but don't quote me on that.

I had a client who told me once he could head butt me without feeling bad about it, his doctor explained to him he was schizophrenic and that was why (yeah, right, I know). He was an asshole.

Also, I header years later he ended up shot in the head and his body was found in the forest.

Even so, one of my older bestie (whose mom was schizophrenic) told me schizophrenic people can be asshole too if they wish and play the game, beyond what could usually comes with the symptoms.

All of this is juste anecdotes though.

> Autism is easy to point at to make one think the response to "assholes" should be thought through more carefully. There are many others, not always as easy.

I believe that whether people are assholes because they are assholes or autism/asp. (and I don't believe every autistic person or asperger is automatically an asshole, quite the contrary) it's up the the other side to find the resilience/methods to deal with it in a respectful way (respect for oneself and the other). Don't put fire on it, whatever the origin.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#179

Post by pnutjam » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #170

pnutjam wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to "imagine" what you would do if you were a minority. Especially when you haven't lived it. Your asking for diversity of behavior, but you seem to expect everyone to respond like they had your experiences and background.

> It's easy to "imagine" what you would do if you were a minority. Especially when you haven't lived it. A better way to run the argument would be to address the substance of raxxorrax's argument here, for example by pointing out any specific problem with the way he imagines what minorities feel. Instead, you doubted his ability to imagine it, despite you don't know him at all. This is just an ad hominem attack.

From Wikipedia: "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument"

I pointed out that he is complaining about the "diversity crowd" and at the time asking for us to embrace his diversity. I'm not sure how that's Ad Hominum? Furthermore, the parent comment states, "If I were belong to a minority", which implies he is not a minority. (leaving aside and grammatical issues)

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#180

Post by runamok » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

The article rang true for me in that I am the asshole to some people but I don't start out an asshole. I just get impatient after explaining or documenting something 10 times and people ignoring it.

I still want to minimize that bad karma but just letting people be bad at their job with no consequences doesn't seem good either.