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Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

9to5mac.com

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Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#171

Post by mxcrossb »

Octoth0rpe wrote: post #128
rev12 wrote: post #121

It seems like there are two camps of people: Those who are very pleased to hear they will be backpedaling on their updated keyboard designs. Those who "don't understand" because they actually like the new keyboards (and the TouchBar even). No matter where you stand, the new keyboards are highly controversial and divisive, and that's not good. The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were the…

> The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there. Have you ever spoken to a thinkpad advocate re: chiclet keyboards? The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened. > I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard. Honestly…

Most of the technology works just hates any sort of change. Apple’s core base is different, they embrace change regardless of its utility. So that makes it hard to evaluate this kind of tech online.

I’m also noticing that the article suggests that apple’s real reason for change is poor yield and reliability. Those are objective measures, so I think we can agree that the current keyboard is bad.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#172

Post by Razengan »

masklinn wrote: post #126
vbezhenar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed by my iPhone 8 home button. It's not a real button, it's just an imitation, but its feedback is so real. I don't know whether it would be possible, but I think that it's a possibility: to imitate an entire keyboard with just flat touch panel. That would solve all problems with those movement parts that always failing and there would be no holes for dust at all!

The trackpad on macbook pros work the same. There's a big issue there though: on a keyboard you want and expect travel at the physical level, that travel is a significant part of the feedback. One of the issues in the butterfly is many people hurt after typing for some time, the lack of resistance before smashing into the hard stop is a source of physical trauma.

> One of the issues in the butterfly is many people hurt after typing for some time

Is there a source for this?

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#173

Post by natrik »

Amezarak wrote: post #164
vbezhenar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed by my iPhone 8 home button. It's not a real button, it's just an imitation, but its feedback is so real. I don't know whether it would be possible, but I think that it's a possibility: to imitate an entire keyboard with just flat touch panel. That would solve all problems with those movement parts that always failing and there would be no holes for dust at all!

What's wrong with just going back to plain-old keyboards that work? Why do we need this 'innovation' in the keyboard space? 'My keyboard broke' has never been a problem. I used the same laptop for just shy of 12 years. No keyboard problems. I'm typing on a 10+ year old keyboard right now. The only 'problem' is that some of the letters are partially worn away. Why not just use what works instead of inventing something…

It's almost always better to strive for what's better.

Innovation can lead to more accessibility, time savings, etc.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#174

Post by alxlaz »

afandian wrote: post #101
xattt wrote: post #85

I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.

The Lenovo Yoga Book is a hinged tablet. Bottom half is a glass surface with both capacitive touch and Wacom digitiser. It comes with a Wacom pen, which has a swappable ballpoint pen nib so you can draw on paper and have it digitised. There's a backlit silkscreen-type stencil that shines through a (permanent) keyboard layout. And touchpad. So, it's touch-screen typing on a fixed keyboard layout. And you can swap betw…

It baffles me that anyone would even attempt this, considering that a very similar technology -- not touchscreen keyboard, but with roughly similar properties -- has been tried in the 1980s, repeatedly, and has been, well, pretty much a failure for general-purpose computing.

(Edit: for confused readers, what we used to call a "membrane keyboard" looked like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Magnavox... . I.e. literally a membrane, with key outlines printed and nothing else. You'd press on the outlines which would go down, traveling no more than a few mm, a distance that was barely perceivable).

The ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000 in the US), the Magnavox Odissey, all had membrane keyboards and they were absolutely miserable. They weren't laggy or anything, it's just that the nearly complete absence of tactile feedback made them extremely annoying to use for any kind of productive purpose. They were beyond terrible and I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back to almost that. I say "almost" because membrane keyboards actually had a modicum of tactile feedback, and some manufacturers did eventually give in and produce membrane keyboards with some sort of tactile hints (e.g. embossed letter outlines). Touchscreens are even worse than that.

Membrane keyboards were ok (and still are) for things like limited consumer electronics controls and 16-key industrial touchpads (they're basically immune to liquids and dust). But they turned out to be useless for typing more than 20-30 characters at a time and they were abandoned save for a few niches.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#175

Post by WAHa_06x36 »

Fnoord wrote: post #116
WAHa_06x36 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the design is that it breaks, not that it is otherwise bad. I prefer it over the older design, as do many others.

That is the main problem with it. * It breaks. * It makes a lot of noise. * It has almost no travel. I really dislike #2 and #3 but to their credit it is thin (which I don't care much about). You can argue about #2 and #3 being subjective which is fair enough (the same is true for it being thin). However #1 is not subjective, and doesn't occur in a "few isolated cases". It is a proven design issue. What I'd furthermo…

It may make a bit more noise than the older one, but it certainly does not make "a lot" of noise. And the short travel is also not a problem, just a personal preference. As I said, I much prefer it, as do many others.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#176

Post by jen20 »

bad_user wrote: post #162
b3b0p wrote: post #161

I think I'm definitely in the minority here on this community, but I actually don't mind the keyboard and TouchBar. The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the…

> Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me I'm mapping Caps Lock to Control, because it's way more useful. Yes, I'm an Emacs user primarily, but I know Vim users that do the same. You can't remap Caps Lock twice. And what will happen when Caps Lock itself will be gone?

You can map caps lock twice - karibiner allows you to map taps to be escape and held down to be control. I have used this for over a decade.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#177

Post by karmakaze »

vbezhenar wrote: post #111
xattt wrote: post #85

I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.

I'm amazed by my iPhone 8 home button. It's not a real button, it's just an imitation, but its feedback is so real. I don't know whether it would be possible, but I think that it's a possibility: to imitate an entire keyboard with just flat touch panel. That would solve all problems with those movement parts that always failing and there would be no holes for dust at all!

But imagine trying to use it without looking if it was completely flat. Keys without edges won't work well unless you're looking like on a mobile. There is tech for a display that can render relief.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#178

Post by rahoulb »

robertAngst wrote: post #78
dougmwne wrote: post #7

Thank goodness. MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects, but I had to cross them off the buy list due to the keyboard. I understand it's controversial, but for me I've spent plenty of time using the butterfly keyboard and it just doesn't feel comfortable to me. And I'm not some mechanical keyboard purist, actually my favorite keyboard of all time was the previous chicklet keyboard. A runner up for me is a trav…

> MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects I've never heard this before. I thought some people needed their proprietary software that could only be run on Apple products, and that is what forces someone to buy a Macbook. What are they best in class for? EDIT: Thank you for the serious responses

The trackpad makes it impossible for me to use a non-Apple laptop (I particularly love the haptic ones) - if anything else comes close I would love to try it.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#179

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

bad_user wrote: post #162
b3b0p wrote: post #161

I think I'm definitely in the minority here on this community, but I actually don't mind the keyboard and TouchBar. The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the…

> Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me I'm mapping Caps Lock to Control, because it's way more useful. Yes, I'm an Emacs user primarily, but I know Vim users that do the same. You can't remap Caps Lock twice. And what will happen when Caps Lock itself will be gone?

I remap Command to Caps, because I got used to Ctrl being there as a Sun admin, and now Command usually works where I expect Ctrl. At least Apple makes it easy to remap, though you have to remap every mechanical keyboard you own. ;-) I can't believe that it still takes a registry hack (and a re-login) on Windows.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#180

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

xattt wrote: post #85

I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.

Apple got their multitouch capacitive screen technology from a company called FingerWorks that used to produce keyboards. The keyboards were apparently popular with some people with RSI.

After the sale to Apple, they stopped producing keyboards and prices for anything that remained skyrocketed to $1500.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=3940.0

Maybe that’s an idea, simply get 2 iPad Minis and display keys on them for a full keyboard. You could angle them and redraw the keys however you want. If you really need tactile feedback, just place the keys on top. No need to wire them up.

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