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Non-English-based programming languages

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Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#171

Post by nikeee »

jnurmine wrote: post #33

The Wikipedia list does not mention Tampio, an OO language where programs are written in proper Finnish: https://github.com/fergusq/tampio As an example, here is kertoma.itp (an example routine to calculate a factorial): Pienen luvun kertoma on riippuen siitä, onko se pienempi tai yhtä suuri kuin yksi, joko yksi tai pieni luku kerrottuna pienen luvun edeltäjän kertomalla. Luvun edeltäjä on se vähennettynä yhdellä. Ol…

The article also does not mention that not only Excel Formulas are localized, but VBA was localized in Office 95 as well [1].

This is German VBA:

    Funktion VorherigerGeschaeftstag(dt Als Datum) Als Datum
        Dim wd Als Integer
        wd = Wochentag(dt) ' Wochentag liefert 1 für Sonntag, 2 für Montag usw.

        Prüfe Fall wd
            Fall 1
                ' Auf Sonntag wird Datum vom letzten Freitag zurückgegeben
                VorherigerGeschaeftstag = dt - 2
            Fall 2
                ' Auf Montag wird Datum vom letzten Freitag zurückgegeben
                VorherigerGeschaeftstag = dt - 3
            Fall Sonst
                ' Andere Tage: vorheriges Datum wird zurückgegeben
                VorherigerGeschaeftstag = dt - 1
        Ende Prüfe
    Ende Funktion
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Basic_for_Applications#...

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#172

Post by aasasd »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #136
furyofantares wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower-case words have a wider variety of shape, as so many letters have markings extending above and below the horizontal lines that bound the letter o. UPPER-CASE WORDS ARE BASICALLY ALL RECTANGLES OF VARYING WIDTH AND FIXED HEIGHT. BUT THEY USE MUCH LESS WHITESPACE, WHICH IS WHAT LOWER-CASE WORDS USE TO CARVE OUT SHAPE. I believe the result is that lower-case words are easier to read at sufficiently close distance…

Word shape is not a well-supported theory of reading. Very skilled and practiced readers are still going letter by letter. "The result" is that if you pull people off the street and ask them to read capitalized or lower-case text, they're slower at reading the capitalized text. People like pasabagi want to leap to the conclusion that that means reading capitalized text is harder. That conclusion is unjustified; the r…

I second the neighbor's request for references, since your claim goes against the accepted ‘wisdom.’

Note also that your claims don't actually refute pasabagi's original conclusion. If lowercase text is easier to read because of its ubiquity, this still means we should use lowercase text—the same way that we use the right-hand rule for screwing things in and out. Books, and lowercase, were around longer than telegraph.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#173

Post by aasasd »

Waterluvian wrote: post #147
aasasd wrote: post #24

Seeing a programming language in your native language after working with English ones, you discover that it looks and sounds pretty ridiculous. My belief is that the native language is ingrained on a low level in the brain, so it's decoded ‘in the hardware’ and directly invokes meanings and associations, whereas a second language goes through at least some level of conscious processing. The very same way, I'm physica…

Not saying you're wrong about the hardware analogy. But I think it's no different than learning to drive or play a sport. Eventually it just becomes automatic.

Been reading and writing English almost exclusively, every day, for the past ~six years, out of ~twenty years of learning it—still waiting for it to become automatic.

Childhood does things to your brain. And language recognition doesn't work the same way as motor skills.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#174

Post by codeulike »

buybackoff wrote: post #164
Iv wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French here, that's my experience as well. I want to emphasize that the huge majority of the non-english native programmers I know are pretty opposed to translating programming languages. However, my experience teaching Japaneses has been that what is crucial if you want to make a programming language accessible to different nationalities is to translate error messages correctly. Learning IF, FOR, RETURN is not hard.…

Cannot agree on error messages, had opposite experience with them. I always require all team members to install English versions of runtimes because it is easy to search non-trivial errors on the internet. Many translations are automatic or done by not very technical people and they sound weird in local language, e.g. many terms in Russian, even such simple as "heap allocation", are really weird. An English error tha…

Maybe error messages should just point to pre-prepared StackOverflow questions*

(* which would probably get closed by s.o. mods)

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#175

Post by cmroanirgo »

satori99 wrote: post #153
cmroanirgo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming uses the same words as regular English Let us be clear that this is US English and not British, but I agree with your sentiment: that the keywords are more a linguistic jargon than anything. Although the main topic here is about other languages, there are also nuances within the two main streams of English that it's also a little wierd sometimes. For me, I spell color with a U: ie. colour , but when cod…

> The good news is that machine code and punch cards have no language Aren't most instruction names are English abbreviations? Maybe we can internationalize those too. Just to be consistent of course.

> Aren't most instruction names are English abbreviations?

I think you're thinking of boring old assembly...? eg (a move instruction):

> MOV EAX,15

Yes you're right about the abbreviated english, but that's why I didn't suggest it as an i18n solution.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#176

Post by needle0 »

qiqitori wrote: post #158
Iv wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French here, that's my experience as well. I want to emphasize that the huge majority of the non-english native programmers I know are pretty opposed to translating programming languages. However, my experience teaching Japaneses has been that what is crucial if you want to make a programming language accessible to different nationalities is to translate error messages correctly. Learning IF, FOR, RETURN is not hard.…

I speak English natively and Japanese fluently, and in my experience error messages (and other messages) that were translated into Japanese are often of rather questionable quality. But you're right, people who don't speak English very well (and aren't too experienced) often don't even notice non-fatal errors. I still think that showing translated error messages isn't very good. 1) Messages are often translated poorl…

I don't quite get the reasoning where you talk about the quality of Japanese error messages, then talk about making it even harder to decipher. Sure you can compress meaning into short strings of kanji, but readability definitely takes a hit when you do that, even to a native speaker. It's not like we're displaying this on paper; there could be better ways to show errors to non-English speakers, eg. more descriptive messages like "エラー: 配列の範囲外へアクセスしています" can be shown by default and perhaps the original error message can show up when you mouseover on it or whatever.

The "searchability on Stack Overflow" argument may vary depending on language, by the way - Japanese is one of the languages where technical information written in the language is fairly abundant (considering JP natives tend to avoid writing in English themselves and rather stick to writing Japanese), but this may not be true for other languages. Another factor is how likely the speaker of the language is to be English-bilingual.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#177

Post by maxheadroom »

Kiro wrote: post #44

I don't get all the explanation going on in "Prevalence of English-based programming languages". English is the lingua franca of programming so origin is almost irrelevant. I'm Swedish but if I would develop a programming language I would do it in English, even if it was only for myself so I don't believe the "used English to appeal to an international audience" argument.

>...I would do it in English...

Men du hade inte säga varför du skulle skriver detta på engelska. Till exampel, är engelska mycket bättre än svenska för som programmerarspråk?

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#178

Post by needle0 »

TheGRS wrote: post #74
aasasd wrote: post #24

Seeing a programming language in your native language after working with English ones, you discover that it looks and sounds pretty ridiculous. My belief is that the native language is ingrained on a low level in the brain, so it's decoded ‘in the hardware’ and directly invokes meanings and associations, whereas a second language goes through at least some level of conscious processing. The very same way, I'm physica…

I can't imagine programming with ESL and having to deal with code where some english speaker thought they were super clever and named various classes and variables after things that are super referential or punny. I see a lot of classes at my current job named after 80s TV shows or inside jokes. Maybe having ESL would make that type of thing easier to deal with actually since it drives me up the wall.

Oh boy. Phabricator was _terrible_ with this. Native English speakers thought ridiculous button UI names like "Clowncopterize" were so funny. Fricking no.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#179

Post by thaumasiotes »

aasasd wrote: post #172
thaumasiotes wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Word shape is not a well-supported theory of reading. Very skilled and practiced readers are still going letter by letter. "The result" is that if you pull people off the street and ask them to read capitalized or lower-case text, they're slower at reading the capitalized text. People like pasabagi want to leap to the conclusion that that means reading capitalized text is harder. That conclusion is unjustified; the r…

I second the neighbor's request for references, since your claim goes against the accepted ‘wisdom.’ Note also that your claims don't actually refute pasabagi's original conclusion. If lowercase text is easier to read because of its ubiquity, this still means we should use lowercase text—the same way that we use the right-hand rule for screwing things in and out. Books, and lowercase, were around longer than telegrap…

> I second the neighbor's request for references

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/develop/word-rec...

> since your claim goes against the accepted ‘wisdom.’

This is overly generous as a description of a collection of myths that have been known false for decades.

> Note also that your claims don't actually refute pasabagi's original conclusion. If lowercase text is easier to read because of its ubiquity, this still means we should use lowercase text

No, it doesn't, because if we ignore your advice and use capitalized text, capitalized text will be common enough that the advantage of lowercase text disappears.

Re: Non-English-based programming languages

#180

Post by satori99 »

cmroanirgo wrote: post #175
satori99 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The good news is that machine code and punch cards have no language Aren't most instruction names are English abbreviations? Maybe we can internationalize those too. Just to be consistent of course.

> Aren't most instruction names are English abbreviations? I think you're thinking of boring old assembly...? eg (a move instruction): > MOV EAX,15 Yes you're right about the abbreviated english, but that's why I didn't suggest it as an i18n solution.

yeah, indeed i was
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