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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#171

Post by return1 »

leereeves wrote: post #90
radcon wrote: post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

Assuming that it is, can they do something about it ?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#172

Post by dnautics »

thebradbain wrote: post #159
mikeryan wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. This isn't how it works? Rates of pay are mutually agreed upon between an employer and employee regardless of classification.

I think the pro-labor argument is Uber doesn’t even consider / allow negotiating their standard contract for rate-setting. IIRC Microsoft got in trouble in the early 2000s for doing something similar in having separate standardized pay-scales for contractors depending on how long they’ve contracted with Microsoft, and no option to negotiate, and the labor board argued that Microsoft was trying to shoehorn contractor-…

Yeah, that makes sense, because the rate of the contract should only depend on the content of the job. And contractors should be able to compete for those jobs. That's certainly the case for Lyft/Uber.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#173

Post by mikeash »

eropple wrote: post #167
mikeash wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxi prices are regulated because negotiation was too difficult in the pre-smartphone era and taxi drivers would take advantage of information asymmetry to screw people. None of that applies here. The negotiation is happening between the drivers and passengers, which is how it should be. Uber and Lyft are acting as intermediaries, and are trying and failing to stop this negotiation.

Can you explain where you see a "negotiation" in this? (Don't get me wrong, I like the cut of your jib, it just seems to map better to a dysfunctional spread-based market.)

The drivers are offered a certain rate. They refuse, implicitly asking for a higher rate. This repeats until the drivers get a rate they can accept, or they give up and go home.

On the other side, passengers are offered a certain rate. They can accept it, or they can refuse and implicitly ask for a lower rate.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#174

Post by human20190310 »

chrismeller wrote: post #150
wlesieutre wrote: post #12

News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this has consequences on both sides. If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for this: 1) Hire employees 2) Give them a schedule 3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

I find it hard to agree. Hear me out... They are contractors because they do not have any set obligation for time. Rate of pay or overall pay has nothing at all to do with that. According to the IRS they do not have a set schedule and they are contractors (that is 1099, not W2). So they are contractors. What does that have to do with pay? Absolutely nothing. You want x and are willing to pay y. Maybe there’s an oppor…

> In this case Uber offered you $x. You agreed to $x.

The value of x was established under different circumstances. What's wrong with bumping that to 1.5x as soon as you have the power to do so?

When the cab industry was "the system", Uber and Lyft beat the system and made money. Now the drivers are beating the Uber/Lyft system and making money.

Viva disruption.

EDIT: Actually Uber/Lyft beat the cab system and lost money, but that's another kettle of fish.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#175

Post by toss1 »

lexs wrote: post #18
wlesieutre wrote: post #12

News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this has consequences on both sides. If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for this: 1) Hire employees 2) Give them a schedule 3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

And suddenly Uber/Lyft are like any other Taxi company just with a massive valuation.

"And suddenly Uber/Lyft are like any other Taxi company just with a massive valuation." . . . which valuation would be rapidly evaporating.

I suspect this will happen one way or the other, as something that cannot be sustained will not be -- something's got to give, either rates will go up, costs will go down, or the companies will fold.

Rates probably have some room to rise. My limited experience is mostly airport rides, where they are cheaper than limo's taxis. But I'd still pay the same as the competing services, since Lyft has always been more reliable and pleasant. The main competition is parking.

Lower costs? I don't think so, short of automation. The drivers' costs & compensation have already evidently been pushed to the limit, as they are starting to strike.

Will they sort out either? I'm not buying either stock, even at the discount prices...

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#176

Post by return1 »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #51

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I agree with what I'm about to say, but the drivers need to be careful, because they might run afoul of collusion. Since they are all independent contractors, they are "rivals" in the same industry, so with all of them cooperating to increase fares for their benefit (and based on my understanding of the law), they are technically colluding.

Is that illegal? They can always claim it's not collusion because anyone can join uber and set another price - They are not stopping anyone from doing that. (also it seems almost trivial to fix this with a change in algorithm)

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#177

Post by ma2rten »

gdhbcc wrote: post #5

I dont see how Lyft gets off calling this fraudulent. Seems to me it's the system working as intended, and as it should. Drivers dont want to drive for under a certain value, so they simply inform the app who adjusts the value to fulfill demand. Seems like its what you want to happen.

I don't know if I would call it fraud, but I can see where they are coming form. Drivers aren't individually deciding to turn off the app, but they are doing it collectively to manipulate the app into surge pricing.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#178

Post by dnautics »

gdhbcc wrote: post #5

I dont see how Lyft gets off calling this fraudulent. Seems to me it's the system working as intended, and as it should. Drivers dont want to drive for under a certain value, so they simply inform the app who adjusts the value to fulfill demand. Seems like its what you want to happen.

Its not clear to me that Lyft is calling the behavior fraudulent. That's a sketchy AF quote-out-of-context by wjla.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#179

Post by Analemma_ »

umeshunni wrote: post #157
giaour wrote: post #8

As much as I would be displeased if my fare were manipulated, I can only blame Uber and Lyft for this. They created an incentive for drivers to act as a unit, and groups of drivers are figuring it out. Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis

> Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis Did I miss a sarcasm tag?

In most cities I've been to, the local taxi service has fixed fares for trips to/from the airport.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#180

Post by eropple »

mikeash wrote: post #173
eropple wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain where you see a "negotiation" in this? (Don't get me wrong, I like the cut of your jib, it just seems to map better to a dysfunctional spread-based market.)

The drivers are offered a certain rate. They refuse, implicitly asking for a higher rate. This repeats until the drivers get a rate they can accept, or they give up and go home. On the other side, passengers are offered a certain rate. They can accept it, or they can refuse and implicitly ask for a lower rate.

That seems less like a negotiation to me than a double-dealing bookmaker. ;)
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