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Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

med.stanford.edu

171–180 of 228 posts

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#171
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice curiosity gap there. Where did the mercury come from?

IMO he is clearly implying it came from a vaccine(s) but he is trying to do it without being seen as an anti-vaxxer.

Surely you'd have to have a lot of vaccines for it to compare to the amount you get from other sources (mostly seafood afaik?)

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#172
Ron Davis has worked on this day and night for years. I remember reading about his effort to figure out CFS to save his son. I'm not even sure this was his field of expertise. He just wanted to save his sons life and gave his every waking moment to try and figure it out. It makes me very happy that he seems to have accomplished it. I'm curious if his son is still with him, he was in really bad shape back in 2016.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#173
post #137
post #2

Paper at https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2019/04/24/190127411... Pleasantly surprised to discover that it was legally available! The test appears to be ridiculously good. Perfect separation of 40 subjects into those who have been diagnosed with CFS and those who are known to be healthy, from blood samples. I want to see this replicated, by people who are not the original authors; but if this test is anything…

Thanks for the paper link. I read the paper and it's really a semiconductor sensor engineering paper, not a biology paper. The paper seems very preliminary; it shows that CFS and non-CFS sample have widely different impedances under osmotic stress, but the mechanism behind this is entirely hand-waving. If I'm reading the paper correctly, the samples were peripheral blood mononuclear cells (i.e. lots of different cell…

This is less a criticism of the paper than it is a statement of misaligned expectations.

> but the mechanism behind this is entirely hand-waving.

The objective of this paper was not to specify, or even attempt to specify, the mechanism.

> The paper's use of machine learning seems entirely pointless, basically drawing the obvious line between the two sets of points.

Yeah, that is pretty much the entire objective of SVMs.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#174
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the paper link. I read the paper and it's really a semiconductor sensor engineering paper, not a biology paper. The paper seems very preliminary; it shows that CFS and non-CFS sample have widely different impedances under osmotic stress, but the mechanism behind this is entirely hand-waving. If I'm reading the paper correctly, the samples were peripheral blood mononuclear cells (i.e. lots of different cell…

The use of machine learning needs to be explained. I’m half expecting it to boil down to “we evolved the neural nets until it perfectly separated the two groups” — overfitting “learning”.

Why does it need to be explained if the test can be proven to be extensible? Asprin worked for nearly 100 years before anyone had any clue how (ditto with many, many more modern drugs).

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#175
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just that the suffering from mental illness is real, it causes very real physical health issues and deeply disrupts your body's hormonal makeup via the HPA axis. The strict delineation between physiological and psychological illnesses is mostly a Western construct and the unfortunate effect is that the CFS community has an obsession with proving that it is a 100% physical illness without any mental component…

Careful not to swing too far the other way. In situations where physical treatments are an option (even if they would only help, not cure), it is important not to give such treatments if it is a mental illness as treatments have risks. If it is mental, mental illness treatment might actually help.

If you look at the CFS forums they are trying all kinds of crazy experimental therapies, many of which have side-effects and few of which have any effects

Another interesting correlary is the pelvic floor dysfunction world. It is mostly a stress based illness which is best addressed by mental health treatment and relaxation but some people have gotten tons of invasive surgeries with reason to think they would even be helpful

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found out last year the root cause of my CFS is life-long mercury toxicity (a well understood neurotoxin). I am responding very positively to treatment. I rarely talk about it because people get very upset when I tell them about the evidence of where the mercury came from.

Do you eat 20 cans of tuna a day? When I was much younger I ate 1-2 cans of tuna pretty much every day for few years and I didn’t have any ill effect at all.

Did you just like the taste?

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#177
post #2

Paper at https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2019/04/24/190127411... Pleasantly surprised to discover that it was legally available! The test appears to be ridiculously good. Perfect separation of 40 subjects into those who have been diagnosed with CFS and those who are known to be healthy, from blood samples. I want to see this replicated, by people who are not the original authors; but if this test is anything…

I have to agree with you here - the separation is too good. You just never get anything in the real world that works this well with complex diseases.

Of course skepticism is warranted however an important distinction to make is that they are measuring a whole cell phenotype, rather than some surrogate such as gene expression or a circulating molecule. I work on cancer biomarkers, and phenotypic readouts work much better than you might expect.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get angry like some people about "anti-vaxxers", but the reason I am not one, is because I think that if low levels of mercury were a major health issue, then it would be apparent in large populations that consume a relatively large amount of mercury-containing seafood. e.g. Japan. And in Japan, there have also, as it happens, been incidents of acute mercury poisoning with significant numbers of people, so th…

Yes, data on mercury toxicity is quite clear that vaccines as safe. However it's unfortunately easy to find sham "doctors" that will diagnose whatever the patient requests - mercury poisoning, EBV, chronic lyme disease, just pay in full and all your beliefs will be confirmed! Just don't look too closely at the placebo, er, cure...

Well, there are lots of rare diseases, and mercury could be a factor in some of them. That doesn't mean they are imaginary. It's more of a definitional/philosophical issue, that some other factor is essential as well, so it's not right to attribute the problem only to mercury.

The distinction I'm making is that I am pretty sure low level mercury is not an issue like lead from gasoline, although I can imagine evidence that would change my mind. If it was, we should be able to see blatant differences in large populations, just like we see with lead and violent crime.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#179
post #36

So what they measure and where is the paper? I read the linked pr but find nothing about them

I don't understand the details but here is the link to the paper https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/04/24/1901274116

Thanks for the link. I read the paper and it seems that they just measure the impedance (or resistance) of the cell membrane with an artificial increase of NaCl in the extracellular environment (ie plasma in the text). The final NaCl concentration looks like to be doubled than the normal range.

This might be an intersting finding, but I can't figure out why the impdecance of membrane need to be measured with increased NaCl in the plama. And whether it is only related with Na+ or Cl- change.

Re: Biomarker for chronic fatigue syndrome identified

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, data on mercury toxicity is quite clear that vaccines as safe. However it's unfortunately easy to find sham "doctors" that will diagnose whatever the patient requests - mercury poisoning, EBV, chronic lyme disease, just pay in full and all your beliefs will be confirmed! Just don't look too closely at the placebo, er, cure...

Well, there are lots of rare diseases, and mercury could be a factor in some of them. That doesn't mean they are imaginary. It's more of a definitional/philosophical issue, that some other factor is essential as well, so it's not right to attribute the problem only to mercury. The distinction I'm making is that I am pretty sure low level mercury is not an issue like lead from gasoline, although I can imagine evidence…

I'm also pretty sure that peanut butter is not an issue, but it does kill some people. Maybe there are people out there who are ultra-sensitive to mercury.
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