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Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

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Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#171
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, according this[0] report Toronto has around 6200 entire units as airbnb units. That's at the very least 6200 less rental units in the market. And you know very well how supply and demand works. Anecdotal, but the couple in my neighbouring unit recently bought a condo and moved out. Guess what happened to that unit. It's a full time airbnb unit now. My floor has 12 units, and out of it 3 are full time airbnb uni…

I think it's reasonable to assume Airbnb reduces supply. I don't see how you can conclude the 30% rent increase you experienced was largely driven by Airbnb. Lets say anyone renting out their unit for less than half a year wouldn't have put the unit on the rental market anyways. If you download and dive into the data, you'll see that there are ~9550 "Entire home/apt" listings, of which 5992 are available for less tha…

First of all, appreciate the level headed discussion and some very sound points that you bring.

I dug through insideairbnb more and it's actually 12,374 (65%) units that are listed as entire unit in Toronto. That absolutely is a very significant amount of units. Only about 7k of the listings are either shared room/private room.

Data: http://insideairbnb.com/toronto/?neighbourhood=&filterEntire...

> Lets say anyone renting out their unit for less than half a year wouldn't have put the unit on the rental market anyways

See, that's a valid point though in Canada it is difficult to get a mortgage and there are people now buying a second unit to treat as an airbnb property and generate income. Chances are that if the unit is sitting idle for > 90 days and You say it's negligible but you have to remember that we have one of the lowest vacancy rates.

source: https://dailyhive.com/toronto/vacancy-rate-toronto-ontario-c...

So forget about affordable rentals, there even is a shortage of just units in the market over here.

Also, just go on r/toronto and search for Airbnb and you'll see an overwhelming majority of people echoing the issues that i've been saying.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So isn’t the more salient point here that tenants’ rights are apparently so strong here that the owners would rather leave the properties vacant (and lose money) than rent them out to a new tenant? Perhaps if they would remove some of the more pernicious and abused “rights” for tenants, more property owners would put their property up for rent?

Wait, in your view the banks are the victims? Banks wouldn't have these properties at all if they hadn't screwed the pooch financially with mortages. I find it offensive that after taking people's homes and properties, an immense transfer of wealth to them, they should allow them to sit empty, in order to turn a better profit on the misery they helped cause.

Banks lost money on most of those foreclosures, to the extent that some banks failed and others had to be recapitalized. It wasn't a transfer of wealth to them.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#173
post #127

It doesn't make sense to me why they'd WANT to leave them empty?? If I were a landlord, I'd be doing my best to keep the rentals occupied as much as possible.

"You gotta spend money to make money."

I write that in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek way usually, but getting and caring for a tenant could, in some cases, be more expensive than leaving the space vacant. If you own the property outright, it's a measure of the cost of extra wear-and-tear, property tax, any other fees and fines, and maintenance (like this new one) against the rent you collect.

It's not always the case that the rent is going to be a bigger number than tax, fines/fees, and extra wear-and-tear, especially if you own the property outright. If you add in rent control and a rising trend in rental prices, some landlords would rather leave the space vacant for a while to wait out the market for higher prices.

You could easily lose money if you don't recognize and account for all of the costs.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's property tax in Vancouver? Is this essentially a doubling of property tax? (1% is a fairly common property tax amount)

In general, municipalities are not allowed to run a deficit in Canada. Since high taxes which would result in having a surplus are politically unpopular, usually municipalities get just enough tax to fund their programs. That is when they are writing their annual budget, they define their total expenditure E, the total assessed value of all properties within their municipality V, and set the tax rate for the year by…

Wow, thanks for this, I did not know this and now it makes much more sense as to why international investors saw Vancouver real estate as a piggy bank. In Texas many localities have property taxes of about 2.5% (though no state income tax).

I wish places would do graduated property taxes - I don't know of any place that does that (with the exception of relatively meager homestead exemptions and a few "mansion taxes"). I.e. if you really want to invest in affordable housing, why not have, say, first 100k have very low tax, 100-500k a reasonable tax, etc. Many municipal water and electricity bills work this way and they work well in promoting conservation.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#175
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is, every “tweak” of the market causes ramifications, often unintended. A great example is rent control. Sure it helps current tenants, but it distorts the rental market such that it disincentivizes putting new homes on the market, and the exact opposite of what you want - higher rents.

Higher rents and cheaper houses because they are being sold to the people who want to live in them rather than to someone who already has 5 houses.

Or you know, you could just build more housing.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because renting doesn't make you that much money and you have to work for it. Just leaving it sitting there and selling it later is no effort profit

But its the exact opposite. Rental is generally profitable. You can bet on land while also renting and making extra money. You can't argue that they are greedy for buying land but not greedy enough to squeeze more money out of it. The answer is somewhere else.

In places with rent control, having a tenant reduces the value of the home. Sometime substantially if their rent is locked at a low rate.

It’s not unusual to buy tenants out in SF before putting the home on the market. Spend $50k to get them to leave and the value of the home goes up $200k.

If you know you’re going to sell in a few years, basically the value of the rent (adjusting for buyout) is way less than the incremental profit from selling an empty building.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>vast portfolios of housing whose tenants had been evicted Apparently not that many rights.

I mean, the properties were foreclosed on. Not sure what else you would expect.

If the leasor finds the business too difficult to do within the law then they should change businesses. That's how a healthy market works. In a normal, healthy industry, they would simply go bankrupt selling to those who can.

But in this case, it's possible to sit on land with out utilizing it and actually gain wealth solely because of flaws in that market were land price raises due to other forces than their productive worth. Speculation, persons hiding money from their dubious governments, political influence etc. Sitting on under utilized land is as unproductive as paying people to not grow crops. Even more so since at least in agriculture this, very occasionally, makes sense.

In addition in a growth area, much of the wealth created by those who developed it goes to those that impeded the development. This is exactly the wrong incentives, moving reward from the productive to the counter productive.

So since the market is so seriously broken, producing a dangerous drag on the economy by making labor less and less mobile, there is no choice but to fix it with financial incentives and disincentives.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#178

It sounds nice, but the real question is why are people letting these building sit empty. There is probably a good reason for it. Maybe some renter protection laws that went too far?

You're of the opinion that the power balance in the landlord/tenant relationship is biased in favor of the tenant?

It absolutely is in places like SF.

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#179
I'm surprised no one has mentioned China here.

I was recently able to travel to China for the first time and was fascinated to learn about their housing market. Apparently the Chinese government doesn't have a property tax.

For men in China, owning a home is already incredibly important. It's practically a requirement for getting married, to the point where a woman's family would almost certainly disapprove of a marriage if the man doesn't own a home (which, keep in mind, would be called an apartment in the US). So that coupled with China's huge population means there's already a major demand for owning a home.

China is also experiencing incredible economic growth. Local governments are pouring money into "economic development areas" where you can find modern shopping malls, skyscrapers for businesses, and lots and lots and lots of (what we would call) apartment buildings.

And this isn't just happening in Beijing or Shanghai. There are "tier 3" cities in China with populations the size of LA and NY where you see clusters of dozens and dozens of 40-50 story apartment buildings shooting up.

I was told that the value of homes in these economic development areas -- even in "tier 3" cities -- is going up by an absolute minimum of 10-15%/yr (that's being conservative). So if you have money in China, of course you invest in housing. There's no property tax.

When I see these clusters of apartment buildings popping up all over the country, I really wonder how many people are actually living in them, and how many are just getting turned around year after year for a profit. Chinese people have an unfathomable amount of trust in their government (from a westerner's perspective), so when I asked some friends about this, their response was basically, the government will take care of it. Regardless, very interesting place!

Re: Barcelona Fines Landlords Who Let Buildings Sit Empty

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, in the United States the Eighth Amendment forbids imposing excessive fines, and a very good argument could be made that some of these fines could be classified as “excessive”.

The aim of laws is compliance. If the low and medium fines of previous years have failed to achieve compliance, and fines eventually escalate to high, I'd argue it's far from excessive. If it were excessive a much lower amount would have achieved general compliance with that particular law, would it not?

Our regular human ideas for excessive don't count. There's a legal standard there. I don't know it.
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