The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’ • Hacker News Board

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#171

Post by wott » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #42

agumonkey wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the recent decades turned us away from ~natural gathering/solidarity mindset. Consumerism drugs you thinking the best thing is to satisfy envy with things, and without a context of cultural sharing habits, many people end up alone struggling thinking people are selfish because today's mainstream is selfish and so it's hard to connect.

Not that simple. Social connections require work, they also are slow and unreliable. Before the information age, to get to know something, talking was the main way. But now with books, panels, displays, packaging, signs, internet, GPS, etc., we have access to a huge quantity of information without having to talk to each others. And we choose to do so because on average it's faster, more accurate, and avoid to deal wi…

> But now with books, panels, displays, packaging, signs, internet, GPS, etc., we have access to a huge quantity of information without having to talk to each others.

Very true. And not only information but 'stuff' as well: we buy (and now order) all sort of specialised tools that we will only need once, because they are now cheap and widely and quickly available, instead of borrowing them or asking a neighbour to come over with one.

But yeah, information availability is the main change: instead of asking a neighbour/friend where to get something, how to do something, how to choose something and so on, we browse the web alone for those pieces of information.

All this quickly brings more individualism since we become pseudo-self-reliant, do not need interactions any more, and since those 'forced', interested interactions are absent, the other interactions are lost too.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#172

Post by nicoburns » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #144

david-gpu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all have to do our part to extend safety nets to those in our spheres of influence ...or we can collect taxes and provide goods and services to those that need it the most, even when they are not lucky enough to be in the "sphere of influence" of somebody that is (a) well-off and (b) willing to share their wealth with them.

I agree entirely . But besides run for office (soon) and maxing out my FEC contribution limits (which I already do) to candidates who support policies that align with what you mentioned, this is the only alternative I can suggest. Tactical short term suffering reduction, strategic long term suffering reduction. Through both ideas and actions, you scale a compassionate society. A better tomorrow will hopefully arrive,…

> Societal fabric isn’t going to be solved through anything other than effort on the part of individuals.

Right, but this seems pretty defeatist, or even like it 's advocating against government support.

As a left-leaning person in the UK, I would look to the government before looking for financial support from friends and family, because I see that as one of the functions of government, whereas it may put more strain on my friends and family if they needed to give me significant financial support.

It seems like lot's of people have the moral position that the government should only be looked to for support as a last resort, and i would like to challenge that viewpoint. Kind of how it's much better to catch an illness early, it's much better to intervene early with difficult financial situations to prevent them snowballing into something much worse. And people shouldn't be made to feel bad for accepting that support.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#173

Post by durge » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #61

rfugger wrote: post #7

And this is in Canada, where the author's surgery and other medical care was covered in full by universal health care. Without that, her situation likely would have been far worse, and yet we can still do so much better.

The smug Canadian "well, we don't have these problems here " look on my face dropped into a shocked one when I read that she lives in the same city as me. Probably one of my neighbors. Going to go make a donation to North York Harvest now. Seems like I don't understand poverty enough to say that it's not needed.

I lived in Vancouver, BC for three years having moved from Ames, Iowa. It was my first longish-term experience in a big city in which poor people are 'atomized' by their inability to make due in their current circumstances.The USA and Canada are big places, and I think that problems are more regional (varying widely intrastate/intraprovince) than the huge nets we draw around nation-states. My only takeaway from Van and Ontario are that Canada has a housing/employment location problem that needs addressing!

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#174

Post by yibg » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

xeromal wrote: post #2

Poverty especially sucks when you're all alone like it seems this person was. Where I grew up, most of the people were poor, but we had rich lives for the most part. Lots of family dinners and outings. The people with more would let you take the leftovers home. You can't really train this and we all definitely need a social safety net, but I do think our closed off society prevents us from helping each other too.

Growing up in a poor immigrant family was a weird version of this. Most of us were poor and certainly provided emotional support in this regard. However from what I could see as a child there wasn’t a lot of material support. Maybe something with not wanting to trouble others.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#175

Post by yibg » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #161

rdiddly wrote: post #121

I've been where this author has: selling off stuff and wondering how to pay rent, waiting in line for free food, donating blood plasma for $15, walking everywhere because it's cheaper than the bus, getting arrested for not paying child support. Nonetheless apparently I had it ass-backwards in my head: rather than "poor" I mostly still considered myself what this author would call "broke" the whole time. Maybe it was…

Your last paragraph is spot on. I definitely had a "I'm too poor" mentality for most of my 20s (I did some similar things to the author of the piece, but without the kids), and that mindset was definitely a limiting factor in my life. I was always too poor to do anything I wanted to do. I even considered myself too poor to date anyone, so I just didn't. Now that I'm in my 30s looking back, and even though I'm more fi…

I had the same mentality in my 20s, even though I made a fairly average young engineer salary (in Canada). But comparing myself to others around me I felt poor(er) and made me both limit myself and more risk averse. Looking back now that was silly of course.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#176

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

nubbins wrote: post #142

0815test wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd even argue that "relative" poverty at least (i.e. once one escapes actual, severe deprivation, which is mostly a factor in underdeveloped countries but not entirely unknown in the West, either) is all about the "being alone" factor. The best "anti-poverty" policy, once material abundance is achieved (and a UBI can help with that) is to promote social inclusion and to strenghten institutions that provide social ca…

A lot of conservatives see the value in private arrangements (ie social capital) over public programs certainly, but I think their pro big business policies and suburbanization, inequality etc drive social atomization at least as much as the lefts policies do. Its a complicated problem and as long as we remain deeply commited to economic growth and individualism its hard for me to see how we can solve it.

While I have many thoughts about organized religion, one way that I see it benefits people is that it does give people a sense of community.

And when you think you have an invisible being in the sky that will take care of all of your needs, a government provided social safety net isn’t that important to some people.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#177

Post by themacguffinman » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 10:56 PM UTC

fooker wrote: post #169

sametmax wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but your popularity doesn't affect your experience of buying bread or your ability to reach a destination. In Mali you may get more expensive and shittier products for being disliked. You may have a hard time finding a good guide to accompany you somewhere. You life literally depends on what others think about you. It still true for us, but an order of magnitude less after high school.

>Yes, but your popularity doesn't affect your experience of buying bread or your ability to reach a destination Your credit score does. In some places and situations, more directly than others.

Your credit score is a lot more straightforward and reliable than something like social popularity.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#178

Post by dominotw » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

rfugger wrote: post #7

And this is in Canada, where the author's surgery and other medical care was covered in full by universal health care. Without that, her situation likely would have been far worse, and yet we can still do so much better.

I recently lost my job. I have some savings to keep me going and work on side projects but COBRA is killing me with ~600/month. I only have a couple of months before I need to find a job, any job.

I feel like this discourages ppl from working on their own thing and makes labor market less flexible by forcing ppl into less that ideal positions.

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#179

Post by xtiansimon » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:32 PM UTC

I agree words matter. I'm working as a bookkeeper and broke is when you're spending more than you make wether you're making 500k/year. Poverty is a completely different animal.

"Sometimes I splurge and make homemade hot cocoa. [...] every week we give to the food bank..."

?? Land-o-Lakes hot cocoa mix is $1 at my local grocery store. What kind of hot cocoa are you making lady?

Re: The difference between ‘broke’ and ‘poor’

#180

Post by wutbrodo » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 11:49 PM UTC

xtiansimon wrote: post #179

I agree words matter. I'm working as a bookkeeper and broke is when you're spending more than you make wether you're making 500k/year. Poverty is a completely different animal. "Sometimes I splurge and make homemade hot cocoa. [...] every week we give to the food bank..." ?? Land-o-Lakes hot cocoa mix is $1 at my local grocery store. What kind of hot cocoa are you making lady?

It says "homemade hot cocoa", so it might mean from chocolate or something? Not really sure