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Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

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Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#171

Post by burkaman »

5trokerac3 wrote: post #133
cletus wrote: post #34

In Australia the Leftist government of Gough Whitlam introduced health-coverage-for-all in 1975 with a scheme called Medibank. In 1984 after a couple of governments, Bob Hawke's Leftist government created the Medicare scheme (Medibank became a government provider of private health insurance), which exists to this day. The most interesting stat I ever heard about Medicare was this: prior to Medicare the number one cau…

The United States currently has the highest 5 year survival rate for all cancers combined. I think it's a fair question to ask if that would continue to be the case in a MFA system for 300 million patients. Considering what a disaster the insurance marketplace was, I'm very skeptical. Edit: what I mean by "disaster": when it launched, the site completely crashed for over a month and then, when it finally came back up…

That's a cherry-picked stat. Most health outcomes are worse in the US than other rich countries with universal healthcare. There are many studies and charts you can search for, here's one: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746...

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#172

Post by LorenPechtel »

refurb wrote: post #83
ucaetano wrote: post #5

More than 42% of 9.5M people with cancer drained life's assets within 2 years in the US .

Yes, but bankruptcy due to health reasons is actually quite common in Canada as well. Why? If you’re sick enough you can’t work or pay your bills so you go bankrupt. It’s not just healthcare costs. Survey research commissioned by the Canadian government found that despite having a government-run health system, medical reasons (including uninsured expenses), were cited as the primary cause of bankruptcy by approximate…

Yup. The real issue is a lack of disability insurance, not failings of the health insurance system.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#173

Post by Sahhaese »

Well I can't speak for all countries, but here in the UK I haven't paid a penny toward my cancer treatments.

I also kept my job despite being off work for nearly a year going through chemo, and I even got sick pay for all of that time. (Not at full wage, but still a very generous proportion of it).

Post-treatment I went back to my same workplace, doing the same job, and found out that I had even acrued annual leave at full rate during the 9 months I was off sick, so had 25 "extra" vacation days that I wasn't expecting.

Yes, this is more than the legal baseline, but even the legal baseline would let me keep my job, acrue leave, get some sick pay (although the statuatory sick pay isn't huge), but most importantly, have completely free treatment, so I wasn't spending the little energy I had worrying about medical bills or insurance.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#174

Post by chimeracoder »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #164
rayiner wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wikipedia article misstates the figure in the underlying paper. The underlying paper is talking about "basic research" not R&D. I.e. it doesn't count money spent on e.g. making improvements to use of known molecules, it doesn't count the cost of bringing a new molecule to market, it doesn't count the cost of testing, etc. That's a non-sequitur. Companies have no incentive to spend any more on marketing than they…

Only in America and New Zealand are pharmaceuticals permitted to be marketed directly to consumers. Does the rest of the world not innovate? We’ve tried the free market way, let’s try it the “rest of the developed world way” next.

> Only in America and New Zealand are pharmaceuticals permitted to be marketed directly to consumers.

Marketing does not only include direct-to-consumer advertising.

> Does the rest of the world not innovate?

Pharmaceuticals are a global market. As it turns out, European pharmaceutical companies make a disproportionate share of their revenues from pharmaceutical sales in the US.

But to answer your question: statistically, no, the rest of the world doesn't innovate. Half of all pharmaceutical R&D costs in the entire world are funded by the US. That share has dropped slightly in recent years, but not because the "rest of the developed world" has been increasing their funding: it's because India and China have been rapidly expanding their R&D.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#175

Post by ams6110 »

untog wrote: post #32
vamos_davai wrote: post #4

It's such an absurd expense that I wonder if I get diagnosed with cancer, I would just deny treatment, accept death, and hand my assets to loved ones. Not sure if anyone else thinks the same way.

I don't think anyone can think about it realistically until they are in that situation. How much is another year of your life worth to you? And to your loved ones for that matter? (assuming we're talking terminal cancer here, which it might not be) I have family that suffered from cancer and spent a good lot of money prolonging their life by about eighteen months. They were not pleasant months, but I don't think for…

I'm on the downward side of 50. My best years (physically) are in the past. My kids are nearly adults. I'd rather pass on my assets to them and set them up for a better life than piss it away on medical treatments that don't have much hope of working.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#176

Post by untog »

ams6110 wrote: post #175
untog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone can think about it realistically until they are in that situation. How much is another year of your life worth to you? And to your loved ones for that matter? (assuming we're talking terminal cancer here, which it might not be) I have family that suffered from cancer and spent a good lot of money prolonging their life by about eighteen months. They were not pleasant months, but I don't think for…

I'm on the downward side of 50. My best years (physically) are in the past. My kids are nearly adults. I'd rather pass on my assets to them and set them up for a better life than piss it away on medical treatments that don't have much hope of working.

My point is that your kids might not agree with you, and it is difficult, to say the least, to negotiate that situation. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that everyone has a different answer.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#177

Post by 5trokerac3 »

dontreact wrote: post #163
5trokerac3 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States currently has the highest 5 year survival rate for all cancers combined. I think it's a fair question to ask if that would continue to be the case in a MFA system for 300 million patients. Considering what a disaster the insurance marketplace was, I'm very skeptical. Edit: what I mean by "disaster": when it launched, the site completely crashed for over a month and then, when it finally came back up…

The U.S. actually has worse health outcomes overall than Japan and France who both have universal coverage (through different systems)

What are "health outcomes"? "5 year cancer survival" is a definable metric. "Health outcomes" is very vague. Is there a scoring system? Are different illnesses/conditions ranked?

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#178

Post by chimeracoder »

cletus wrote: post #138
JamesBarney wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for universal coverage too. But reducing the profits of pharmaceutical companies well reduce the money they have for r&d dramatically. This will slow down the speed of pharmaceutical development. So I think it needs to be paired with reforms to the FDA to reduce the go to market costs for drugs.

Pharmaceutical companies spend way more on marketing than research. If drug companies are willing to sell the exact same drug in Canada or the UK or Germany or France for less than a percent (in some cases) of what they sell it here for then why can't US insurance companies, hospitals and consumers buy it for that price? There's no reason other than an artificial monopoly. You'll note that I didn't say "anywhere" and…

> If drug companies are willing to sell the exact same drug in Canada or the UK or Germany or France for less than a percent (in some cases) of what they sell it here for then why can't US insurance companies, hospitals and consumers buy it for that price? There's no reason other than an artificial monopoly.

They're willing to do that because the US is a much larger market than any of those countries. Most pharmaceutical companies - including European companies - make the lion's share of their profits from the US market. If they couldn't, you'd certainly see the costs for essential medicines increase in European countries.

> You'll note that I didn't say "anywhere" and that was deliberate. India, for example, has decided that drug companies largely (it's complicated) don't get monopolies from patents and thus you can buy a lot of low-cost high-quality generics in India because no drug company is getting paid.

India has pretty solid reasons for not honoring drug patents that don't apply to the US or Europe.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#179

Post by nradov »

shereadsthenews wrote: post #43

I'd like to know where the patient with the $870 MRI bill was seen. My last MRI was billed at over $7500. Before I started treatment for my brain tumor I got divorced for purely financial reasons and gave all my remaining money to my children. USA is so fucked.

For non-emergency imaging studies it's worth shopping around. Prices really can vary by a factor of 10× between facilities in the same area. For those with private insurance, most major insurance companies offer some sort of cost estimator on their web sites which allow members to see which radiology centers are cheaper.

(I do appreciate that this is a bad experience for patients.)

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#180

Post by 5trokerac3 »

burkaman wrote: post #171
5trokerac3 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States currently has the highest 5 year survival rate for all cancers combined. I think it's a fair question to ask if that would continue to be the case in a MFA system for 300 million patients. Considering what a disaster the insurance marketplace was, I'm very skeptical. Edit: what I mean by "disaster": when it launched, the site completely crashed for over a month and then, when it finally came back up…

That's a cherry-picked stat. Most health outcomes are worse in the US than other rich countries with universal healthcare. There are many studies and charts you can search for, here's one: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746...

1. This entire article and thread is about cancer, so I'm not cherry picking. If anything the broad "health outcomes" is a diversion from the main subject.

2. What percentage of poorer "health outcomes" are due to the US's ~33% obesity rate and overall horrid diet and have nothing to do with care or access?

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