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It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

nytimes.com

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Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#171

Post by vonmoltke »

untog wrote: post #119
vonmoltke wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The backlash was mostly about the tax breaks and government subsidies that would have been given. The argument was that New York is New York and doesn’t need to bribe companies to put big offices here. If that is the case, where are the calls to end the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program[1], the Relocation and Employment Assistance Program[2], and the Excelsior Jobs Program[3]? That is where the vast majorit…

I don't think it's all that surprising that individuals are more motivated to protest something specific rather than the economic development programs that allow it to happen. I (and many others I've spoken to) don't have a problem with the idea of economic subsidy to support businesses moving to NYC, but objected to a company the size (and success) of Amazon doing so. I can imagine there would be widespread support…

See, that's the thing. Talking about the $3B in credits like it was all a special deal for Amazon hides the scope of these programs and blocks those conversations on what limits (if any) they should have. You won't see widespread support for limiting these programs arise at all if the people who would support it don't realize that they are hanging out waiting for the next huge corporation to come along and take advantage of them without the self-important bullshit Amazon pulled.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#172

Post by vonmoltke »

CPLX wrote: post #127
vonmoltke wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The backlash was mostly about the tax breaks and government subsidies that would have been given. The argument was that New York is New York and doesn’t need to bribe companies to put big offices here. If that is the case, where are the calls to end the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program[1], the Relocation and Employment Assistance Program[2], and the Excelsior Jobs Program[3]? That is where the vast majorit…

This argument is obvious nonsense. There was no outcry to prevent Amazon from using general programs that were open to all applicants, the problem was with the special extras they negotiated. There's no reason to think that Amazon would have been facing opposition if they'd just announced a new project in LIC and applied for the normal programs. They didn't do that.

> This argument is obvious nonsense.

No, it isn't.

> There was no outcry to prevent Amazon from using general programs that were open to all applicants, the problem was with the special extras they negotiated.

People were outraged over the $3B. Less than 20% of that was special extras for Amazon. I don't think anyone would have been any less outraged if the number was $2.5B instead. Particularly since most of the arguments boil down to "billion-dollar corporations don't need tax breaks from NYC/NYS".

> There's no reason to think that Amazon would have been facing opposition if they'd just announced a new project in LIC and applied for the normal programs.

Yeah, because nobody would have known. Look at all the people who assume other large companies in NYC don't get any tax breaks simply based on not hearing about said tax breaks.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#173

Post by pnw_hazor »

CPLX wrote: post #5

New York is the most important city in the history of world civilization, this shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone. Everything genuinely important in this country ends up run from New York City eventually. People forget the Rockefellers made their money in Cleveland. But that aside NYC has always had a serious tech community since the electric grid was invented in lower Manhattan, or the transistor in suburban New Je…

That must be why Manhatten smells like poop and garbage in the summer.

When I was in NYC for an internship. I remember sitting in Central Park enjoying a warm humid breeze that smelled like being at a garbage dump. Blech.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#174

Post by CPLX »

vonmoltke wrote: post #172
CPLX wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is obvious nonsense. There was no outcry to prevent Amazon from using general programs that were open to all applicants, the problem was with the special extras they negotiated. There's no reason to think that Amazon would have been facing opposition if they'd just announced a new project in LIC and applied for the normal programs. They didn't do that.

> This argument is obvious nonsense. No, it isn't. > There was no outcry to prevent Amazon from using general programs that were open to all applicants, the problem was with the special extras they negotiated. People were outraged over the $3B. Less than 20% of that was special extras for Amazon. I don't think anyone would have been any less outraged if the number was $2.5B instead. Particularly since most of the arg…

> I don't think anyone would have been any less outraged if the number was $2.5B instead

I don't think Coldplay is very good. We all have opinions. If they wanted to see what would have happened in that scenario they should have tried it.

> Yeah, because nobody would have known. Look at all the people who assume other large companies in NYC don't get any tax breaks simply based on not hearing about said tax breaks.

Well yeah. They launched a massive national PR campaign to showcase that they were demanding the highest level of special treatment. They literally engineered an auction where they were asking cities to compete to see who could give them the most taxpayer dollars. A lot of New Yorkers weren't interested in "winning" that competition.

Not only could they still take advantage of the existing programs, it's almost certain that they actually still will to some extent. And as you'll see when it happens few will protest that because it wasn't the thing people were protesting against.

They were protesting special treatment.

Many New Yorkers felt, justifiably, like the richest man in the world and the most valuable company in the world should play by the same fucking rules as everyone else. I live here and I'm one of them.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#175

Post by takeout »

blang wrote: post #124
takeout wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a ridiculously bad take. NYers were against Amazon for the same reason Seattle residents were against Amazon taking over SLU. Nobody wanted 15k gentrifying jobs in LIC, half a mile from the Queensbridge Projects. Nobody wanted 15k transplant yuppies who don't want to contribute to culture at all. Nobody wanted Greenpoint, Astoria, and Williamsburg to turn (even more into) a gross similacrum of the Missio…

The diversity of Seattle has increased with the number of Amazon employees: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-is-le...

Racial diversity != economic diversity. I can see why you thought I meant that, and for that I apologize.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#176

Post by electricslpnsld »

aetherson wrote: post #40
peruvian wrote: post #14

One of the reasons for this is that NYC is very livable with a tech salary. I’ve never been in the Bay Area, but here you can make just above $100k and live comfortably with a You won’t be able to buy a house and having a kid without a spouse with a similar salary may be tough, but for a single person it lets you enjoy the city and actually be able to save money.

You can do the same in the bay area. People who are complaining about how unaffordable the bay area is on six figure salaries are either wanting to be much closer than one hour from hot spots, owning a house, having a kid, or some combination thereof.

I think the point is that in NYC, you don’t have to be over an hour from the hot spots if you aren’t making lots of money. It is totally possible to live in Manhattan on 30 grand a year (hell, I’ve done it). To do so in San Francisco or the Penninsula would be much harder.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#177

Post by CPLX »

logfromblammo wrote: post #158
exegete wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found the guy from Jersey! Kidding... But, I agree. Obviously NYC is an important city, but to say it is the most important city in the history of world civilization is a bit outlandish and US-centric.

It seems like a very "New York" thing to say, though. Everyone else in the US knows to enthusiastically agree, quietly raise prices by 40%, and wait to roll their eyes until after the New Yorker's back is turned.

Not a problem, we can afford it.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#178

Post by rongenre »

forgotmysn wrote: post #125

New York is not a tech town. It is a finance town. It is a marketing town. It is a fashion town. It has so many things that dwarf it's tech industry. It's not a tech town, and I honestly don't expect it to become one.

Yeah, my sense is that tech in NYC is tech as an enabler of finance.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#179

Post by jkaplowitz »

L_Rahman wrote: post #148
jkaplowitz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm born, raised, lived most of my life (though not now), and still vote federally in NYC. As a NYer by almost any definition, I agree with AOC that this was a bad deal, and partly due to the influx of new people. Maybe not for her reasons. Particularly, they picked a part of NYC where neither the housing market nor the neighborhood's transit infrastructure can handle that extreme rapid growth. The 7 and G trains wou…

The transit infrastructure argument is moot. Here's transit reporter Aaron Gordon making the case far better than I could: > The G, 7, E, M, F, R, N, and W are all within a reasonable walking distance from the proposed HQ site. In the short term, Amazon will occupy one million square feet of 1 Court Square, which sits directly above…Court Square on the E, M, 7, and G lines (the other aforementioned lines are not far…

Most of that sounds like it would have a hellish impact on the 4/5/6 line. I commuted to LIC In 2007-2008 from the Upper East Side, and that was already quite crowded then.

As for Hudson Yards, that commute isn't countercyclical at all until after it gets east of Grand Central. Whee more crowding.

Also, the NYC transit network hasn't been healthy since at least 2012, much to my chagrin when I returned there from the West Coast in 2013.

Re: It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town

#180

Post by rayhendricks »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #115
etblg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the most critical flaw in Sudbury's plan, is that people would have to live in Sudbury (no offense) It's a small, cold, somewhat-remote city known for mining, and particularly for having an incredibly tall smokestack visible everywhere in town. You can fund startups, but who is going to move from other places to Sudbury?

LOL It's not a critical flaw. It's a reality to be contended with. The flaw would be pretending this isn't the case, and trying to be just like Silicon Valley and competing with them on their terms at their own game. Sudbury is a real city in a real place. It can't relocate. It can't choose a better climate. So community leaders have to contend with reality. Like any competitive landscape, you have to look at your st…

It is cold and remote. As someone living in Seattle, why do you stay in the cold/dark and not go to Toronto/Vancouver/Victoria? Much better weather + much more tech $ + proximity to NY/LAX/Seattle..
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