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A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

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Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#171

Post by dvtrn »

jplayer01 wrote: post #154
dvtrn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I've long wished we would just get rid of any type of approval signalling behavior for comments (across the web too, not just HN or reddit). Probably (almost certainly likely) in the minority on that one, though.

It allows more substantive and interesting comments to wander upwards and be more easily accessible/visible. I feel it works fine on HN, not sure why you'd want to remove that feature. Not all comments are equal and we shouldn't have to treat them that way.

It allows more substantive and interesting comments to wander upwards and be more easily accessible/visible.

I used to believe that, honestly, really did. Not anymore, not after watching how many communities actually behave themselves with vote mechanisms. One of those moments where something "looks good on paper" but not as much when the rubber meets the road, I'm finding a very real personal dislike with approval signaling/seeking features in online discussion groups.

"Not all comments are equal"

I don't believe that either. Maybe it's just a matter of my perspectives changing after the last 17 years on the internet, which is fine. Everyone has a different experience with it.

This same fatigue with "approval signaling" on online commentary extends all the way to Facebook and Twitter, which one of the many reasons I'm no longer on either platform. Reddit is probably the next go go, for all sorts of reasons, if I were to list them, "approval signaling" will most undoubtedly be on the list, but probably further down comparatively.

But I should also clarify, I didn't mean to directly advocate a full out feature request and say "get rid of up and downvotes" right here and now on HN, I was kind of thinking through my keyboard there, I full well realize that feature very likely isn't going anywhere here.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#172

Post by pvg »

afiori wrote: post #167
tptacek wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On HN, it's intentional. That is in fact the policy. It didn't just happen; it was a decision.

still a simple checkbox with a few well chosen reasons would be valuable. At the very least it would make you actually think of why you choose to downvote that specific comment. There are many nuances of disagreement, some deserving a downvote some not.

It's not going to be valuable. Would a simple checkbox with a few well-chosen reasons be valuable for upvotes? The difference isn't nuance or opportunity for self-improvement, it's just that getting downvoted feels bad and getting upvoted doesn't.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#173

Post by dang »

Zecar wrote: post #164
dang wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your passion on topics HN-related! Taking the last point first: HN downvotes aren't arbitrary and excessive. In most cases, not 99% but maybe 90 and certainly 80, it's easy to see why a comment has been downvoted—except when you agree with it on a topic that pushes your buttons, in which case you will always think the downvote was unfair, but then your opinion can't be trusted. (That applies to all us; w…

you don't think think there could possibly be downsides from promoting only one set of viewpoints? That seems naive to say the least.

That doesn't follow.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#174

Post by dang »

forgotmypw3 wrote: post #133
dang wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We call those copycat or follow-up posts and mostly downweight them, on the grounds that predictability makes HN less interesting.

If it's just the same theme, and not just another page on the same thing, why not encourage it instead? Example: reddit.com/r/redditDayOf

Because front page space is the scarcest resource on HN, and there's more information in 30 distinct stories.

The natural place for follow-up links is, of course, the original thread.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#175

Post by dang »

m_fayer wrote: post #159
dang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see that question show up, because we work so hard on the code. It makes sense that you'd ask it, though, because most of the changes are either not visible (like anti-spam or anti-voting-ring features), or are subtle. For example, you may have noticed more capitalized titles on the front page in the last couple days—but this is an experiment we're going to roll back. One reason we don't do a lot…

A well designed official API would go a long way toward letting a thousand flowers bloom. I know there's web and mobile apps already out there, but IMO the average quality is not great. Which is not surprising, given the awkwardness of the existing firebase API, which probably keeps many developers away and eats too much of the efforts of those devs that do try their hand.

We're planning to make a new API that gives a simple JSON version of any HN URL. Would that count?

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#176

Post by dang »

krapp wrote: post #168
lukehack wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the higher barrier to entry is a benefit to this site. Features that would lower friction increase content dilution. From what I understand, this site is not trying to become Reddit.

There is no high barrier to entry here. You literally just have to fill out an HTML form, which everyone knows how to do. It's easier to join HN than it is many other sites, which at least include a second auth factor through email to verify an account. Some sites now require a social media account or validation of a real identity. Lobste.rs won't even talk to you unless someone vouches for you, and they read your ex…

We are certainly not trying to keep non-technical users away. Where did you get that idea?

HN is for the intellectually curious. Many of the posts here are technical but there have always been plenty of non-technical discussions as well.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#177

Post by dang »

sambroner wrote: post #137
dang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see that question show up, because we work so hard on the code. It makes sense that you'd ask it, though, because most of the changes are either not visible (like anti-spam or anti-voting-ring features), or are subtle. For example, you may have noticed more capitalized titles on the front page in the last couple days—but this is an experiment we're going to roll back. One reason we don't do a lot…

What kind of changes to the internals do you all do? And would you do a post on the architecture? I assume there's been lots of work to make the site more efficient/reduce cost. "No [few] internal pressures" sounds like a great recipe for an interesting design.

We've done a lot of work on Arc implementations in the last couple years, but the biggest work still hasn't rolled out yet. If it succeeds, it will buy us a lot more performance. But again, visible features wouldn't change, except that hopefully we'll be able to stop paginating large threads.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#178

Post by Zecar »

dang wrote: post #173
Zecar wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you don't think think there could possibly be downsides from promoting only one set of viewpoints? That seems naive to say the least.

That doesn't follow.

Why's that? BTW I will have to respond to you tomorrow because this answer puts me at my limit for posting today lol.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#179

Post by krapp »

dang wrote: post #176
krapp wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no high barrier to entry here. You literally just have to fill out an HTML form, which everyone knows how to do. It's easier to join HN than it is many other sites, which at least include a second auth factor through email to verify an account. Some sites now require a social media account or validation of a real identity. Lobste.rs won't even talk to you unless someone vouches for you, and they read your ex…

We are certainly not trying to keep non-technical users away. Where did you get that idea? HN is for the intellectually curious. Many of the posts here are technical but there have always been plenty of non-technical discussions as well.

I was more referring to the community than the staff or its policies.

A lot of people here seem to believe the site is supposed to be for technical users and technical content onlym even though that never was the case. The negative impressions people seem to have about "turning into Reddit" or non-technical content diminishing the sites' quality feed into that stereotype, as does the belief that adding "features that reduce friction" would somehow dilute content.

But... the guidelines do use the qualifier "anything that good hackers would find interesting" for determining what's on topic, which does lead people to fill in the blanks for what a "good hacker" should find interesting.

Re: A List of Hacker News's Undocumented Features and Behaviors

#180

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

wtmt wrote: post #161
craftyguy wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lobste.rs does this pretty well, they require you to select one of the provided reasons for downvoting a comment. It gives direct feedback to the commenter as to why their comment was downvoted. The HN and reddit policy is, intentionally or not, "downvote if you disagree." Without any direct feedback mechanism, it will stay that way.

Tangentially, joining lobste.rs is a pain. I once hung around on chat asking for an invite and then gave up. HN on the other hand makes signing up just a matter of seconds, and also has a better breadth of content (because it doesn't make one jump through hoops to sign up). Given this context, the choice between a site where downvoting with a reason is available and a site where downvoting doesn't provide anything mo…

HN also uses a more interesting language (Arc) [lobste.rs uses Ruby, I think]. Though lobste.rs has a different feel, because it's not as big.
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