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Whitespace killed an enterprise app

uxdesign.cc

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Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#171

Post by stingraycharles »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #106
SlightRespect wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist is _the_ case study on how an ugly UI can survive over a long timeline. There are many techies and UI designers that are just disgusted at the UI of craigslist. For some, aesthetic is more important than usability. Luckily, for most, it's not.

Yes exactly. CL is probably my favorite website on the internet, for the sheer reason that they have virtually not changed at all since they first launched over 10 years ago. It's fairly incredible. I can't think of another website that has done that.

CL is only ten years old? I always figured it was from the 90s — maybe a bias originating from the design.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#172

Post by alex_c »

gk1 wrote: post #62
alex_c wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They re-added the accountant feature recently. I imagine they received major pushback on that change.

I heard. Too late, though. They still have a long way to go with making the UX/UI useful again.

Agreed... that’s why I spent yesterday moving all my expenses to a different system.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#173

Post by tomc1985 »

varikin wrote: post #27
duxup wrote: post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

I think that this attitude a great example of the arrogance that permeates a lot of the redesigns that get dropped on people today. Yes one needs to sometimes throw out suggestions (because they aren't aware of techniques) but when users complain or praise something that needs to be listened to because they are literally telling you their workflow and describing potential optimizations. Nothing is more obnoxious than designers telling me I won't want something! It's like, 'fuck you, you don't know me, stop discounting what sounds like a good idea!'

Ask things to your users, and then listen to them! Watch them when they show you things, watch them when they work, watch their emotions to see what they like and don't.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#174

Post by beamatronic »

varikin wrote: post #27
duxup wrote: post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

A/B testing can help. Show them 2 or 3 different ways and watch them as they work with each.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#175

Post by maxxxxx »

varikin wrote: post #27
duxup wrote: post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

You have to do both. Watch and ask.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#176

Post by tabtab »

manyxcxi wrote: post #101
varikin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

> Watch them work. This x1000! I took on a freelance project for a heavy machinery hauling company. They were a year into transitioning away from some customized off the shelf Enterprise scheduling and dispatch system into some custom built software by an “Enterprise” consulting company. They were originally bringing me in to audit what the team that was building it but that pretty much changed on the day I submitted…

RE: and suggested ways their current workflow could be optimized, irrespective of any one technological solution. A crappy process, then automated, is still crappy.

One has to be careful with this; often a process has "invisible benefits" such that outright removing it creates unintended consequences. For example, one industrial analyst found a way to speed up the assembly process. However, it was so efficient that the glue didn't have time to dry before the subsequent steps, damaging the product. Work-arounds were found, but it took time to iron out all the changes.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#177

Post by kbenson »

manyxcxi wrote: post #101
varikin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

> Watch them work. This x1000! I took on a freelance project for a heavy machinery hauling company. They were a year into transitioning away from some customized off the shelf Enterprise scheduling and dispatch system into some custom built software by an “Enterprise” consulting company. They were originally bringing me in to audit what the team that was building it but that pretty much changed on the day I submitted…

> it is still one of my proudest projects even though it was one of the least “sexy” I’ve ever done.

I think one of the most valuable thing software engineers can do for themselves in some circumstances is attempt to shift perspective towards assessing projects by how many people they help and how. The most rewarding projects I can think of are the ones where a day or two after rolling them out, I'm contacted by a few employees that they affected the most and told they love it and it saves them 30-90 minutes every day, consistently.

I think it's a feeling most developers can empathize with, since we often automate boring drudge work in our own jobs and lives. Making multiple people's lives and jobs a little less monotonous and dreary, or a little more effective at their job in a way they feel and appreciate is a good feeling.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#178

Post by memling »

thirdsun wrote: post #95
dictum wrote: post #11

I feel like the author really wanted a scapegoat for a process that was flawed from the start (redesigning a product without research, empathy with users, feedback, gradual introduction with small test groups etc.) Too often I see UX issues blamed on visual choices — the whole everything must be flat movement of 2013-2018 is one example — when there are deeper issues that can't be extracted into a pithy recommendatio…

Exactly. Proper white spacing shouldn’t be the problem of any redesign. Also consider that users often have a tendency to rebel against change. Habits and routines are hard to overcome and the actual might be that features and data simply aren’t in the same place they used to be, regardless of if that new location is much more reasonable. I saw it again and again: Users memorize hard-coded paths to certain functions…

> I saw it again and again: Users memorize hard-coded paths to certain functions - simply changing the name, appearance or position of certain elements along that path was enough to throw them completely off the track.

It seems like that argues against changing it to me, at least in productivity-sensitive applications.

There could be a justification in revamping the interface if there is an expected amount of turnover or the costs of training are significantly higher, of course. Often, though, these are situations where form should follow precedent, not just function.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#179

Post by satysin »

duxup wrote: post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

Asking is good but you often get a lot of wrong information that way. As well as very selective information.

When I was working on a reimplementation of an existing web app I had several team members watch how users were using the application. A mixture of sitting next to them and quietly watching (not interrupting their workflow) and remote watching via shared desktop (which we also recorded to refer to later).

Watching (in person and remotely) was without question more valuable. We could go back and replay what they were doing and why (we had copies of the worksheet they were working from for each use). Without it we wouldn't have delivered about 30% of what they were looking for and would have had to redo a load of work compared to if we had just gone by how they said they were using the system.

The new system rolled out and we had a total of two post-launch changes to make. Both of which were very simple changes. So don't just ask but watch how the users who use the system actually use it.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#180

Post by redwall_hp »

mruts wrote: post #25

A great example of a really nice information dense app is the Bloomberg terminal. Maybe it’s ugly (a lot of people say this, but I personally don’t think so), but all the right design choices have been made. High Contrast, monospaced fonts, extensive keybindings, absolutely no wasted space. And, most essential, it’s not a web app. I used to work at a portfolio analytics company who’s explicit goal was: to have all of…

This is how I feel about computing in general. GUIs in general were a mistake. Vim is fucking awesome, and there's no replacing a shell and the myriad CLI utilities you have at your disposal. The computer is there to automate repetitive tasks, not create virtual busywork.

GUIs generally represent the sacrifice of power and automation for approachability by the lowest common denominator.

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