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Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

revealnews.org

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Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#171

Post by tjoff »

crysin wrote: post #50
wl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dissatisfied customers who don't find refuge in a refund policy/process It's dangerous to label such things as fraud. Chargebacks are a consumer protection mechanism of last resort as well as a remedy for unauthorized charges. If a merchant doesn't deliver what they promised and doesn't issue the appropriate refund, the merchant is the one engaging in fraud.

Chargebacks are a mechanism that can definitely be abused and in those cases would be fraud. I don't see that as dangerous at all. Heck, in posts on these forums people brag about using chargebacks to cancel services because they didn't want to call or follow the guidelines set by the merchant to cancel an account. Whether they're in the right or not that's most certainly bordering abuse of the system.

Making it hard to cancel a service is a blatant abuse of the system.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#172

Post by _cs2017_ »

Uhh what the actual fk, the article reversed the meaning of FB emails.

FB encouraged devs to NOT fight the "friendly fraud". "Friendly fraud" is an industry term (just google it). It is when a customer who received goods then calls VISA and asks to refund their purchase.

Anyway. FB told devs "let parents get their money back, don't fight it". But this article says FB told devs "keep committing fraud", which would be just about the opposite.

Obviously, FB should have taken measures to prevent kids from using their parent cards without permission. But just because FB behaved badly, does not mean it's ok for revealnews.org to spread dirty lies.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#173

Post by _cs2017_ »

DanielDent wrote: post #29

"Friendly fraud" is not a Facebook-invented term. It's a term used and understood by card issuers, acquirers, and merchants. Friendly fraud encompasses: - Dissatisfied customers who don't find refuge in a refund policy/process - Customers who are embarrassed by their purchases. This situation is commonly triggered when a significant other reads a credit card statement. - Customers who spend beyond their means, and th…

Facebook used the term in the same meaning as the rest of the industry, and in the same meaning that you explained. You can read the original doc linked in the article to confirm that.

The article's author lied. They told the readers that FB encouraged fraud, while in fact FB was actually encouraging devs not to fight the chargebacks.

Not that I'm defending FB. They knew the chargebacks were very frequent, so they should have addressed the root cause by adding more verifications before a card can be used. But they were definitely not telling devs to commit fraud.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#175

Post by mosselman »

Sad to see that so many smart people in our industry lend themselves to work for Facebook. There are great tech innovations that come out of Facebook, but that doesn't weigh up to the damage they are doing to society.

Sam Harris has released two great podcasts that discuss how Facebook, and other companies like them, choose to earn money from, amongst other things, radicalising and polarising people in our societies:

https://samharris.org/podcasts/146-digital-capitalism/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/

and to some extent: https://samharris.org/podcasts/144-conquering-hate/

I recommend these highly.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#176

Post by onion2k »

leetcrew wrote: post #89
Spooky23 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Society shifted and gambling is stigma free. My son is old enough that arcades are interesting to him now. I was pretty shocked to see how they have declined into shitty skinner boxes and games of chance to win tickets. That was always a factor, but is much more prominent today. The casual acceptance of sports betting is another example of that shift. There’s probably some free marketeer who will opine that…

honestly I think gambling could be a good thing for a child if they use money they've worked hard for themselves. sooner or later they will suffer a bad loss and have no new toys for a while. maybe give them some "margin" too to really get the point home.

Gambling companies aren't stupid. You only ever lose what you stake, and gambling machines aimed at kids always return a small win, but usually smaller than the stake. That difference is what funds the larger wins (and company profit), but it's the small wins that keep kids playing. When a kid gambles away all their money and all the small win returns that's just "bad luck", and next time they might get a big win and walk away.

Letting kids gambling is a parental choice, but if you think it's teaching your kid a valuable lesson you are dead wrong.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#177

Post by JorgeGT »

Mirioron wrote: post #169
mcv wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in my opinion the core problem with credit cards: that the information to authorise payment is sent through the vendor, who can store it and reuse it without the customer being aware of it. That's just a broken payment system. A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. That's how for example the Dutch iDeal system works. I never use a credit card for a site that accepts…

> A good payment system should require explicit authorisation through your own bank. This would basically make sure I would almost never spend any money online, because going through a bank authorization is annoying enough that I'd rather just go do something else. Forget microtransactions, I wouldn't even buy most games.

The way the system is implemented in Spain (not all sites use it sadly) is simply like 2FA, when you attempt to make the purchase the bank sends a sms or notification through their app with a code you need to input to confirm the order. Or is 2FA annoying as well for you? I know some people hate it.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#178

Post by Dowwie »

The modern in-game transactions remind me of simpler exploits from years ago: 900 number phone games.

Back in the 80s, children were bombarded with advertisement of phone based games using a 900 number prefix. 900 numbers are unique in that they charge a fee for use. A child who wanted to play the RoboCop phone game would simply pick up a phone and dial the number. Shortly after, they would get to press numbers on the keypad to choose their own adventures. The games were addictive and expensive. [1]

Eventually, enough parents were ripped off and they fought the system, convincing legislators and regulators to stop the exploitation. This put a complete stop to 900 number games.

[1] https://guff.com/15-bizarre-1-900-numbers-from-the-80s-and-9...

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#179

Post by leetcrew »

onion2k wrote: post #176
leetcrew wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly I think gambling could be a good thing for a child if they use money they've worked hard for themselves. sooner or later they will suffer a bad loss and have no new toys for a while. maybe give them some "margin" too to really get the point home.

Gambling companies aren't stupid. You only ever lose what you stake, and gambling machines aimed at kids always return a small win, but usually smaller than the stake. That difference is what funds the larger wins (and company profit), but it's the small wins that keep kids playing. When a kid gambles away all their money and all the small win returns that's just "bad luck", and next time they might get a big win and…

I'm not really talking about just letting children open fifty loot boxes back to back. the kid doesn't necessarily understand they are losing in that scenario.

I'm thinking more about games like roulette, poker, dice with chores money. maybe it would need to be in a more controlled environment, like family game night.

not exactly gambling, but I learned a great lesson from my father this way when I was about eleven or twelve. I really wanted some expensive Lego so I begged my dad to lend money to purchase it. at first he wouldn't do it, but eventually he decided it might be a good learning experience for me. I had a blast playing with that set for a month or two, but after a while it was just one more toy that I owned. it took a lot longer than that to pay him back, so I had ample time to reflect on how much it sucked to be in debt. I never asked my dad for another toy loan, and I've basically never considered borrowing money again for anything other than college.

Re: Facebook Let Kids Rack Up Charges on Parents' Credit Cards

#180

Post by rhizome »

Mirioron wrote: post #168
bigbugbag wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it is exactly like a slot machine, well akin to an evolved version actually. It is designed to be addictive with compulsion loops and reinforcement, exploiting brain mechanisms you are not aware of such as disproportionate feedback coming directly from slot machines. Candy crush is a sort of glorified skinner box. Same as gambling machines, candy crush makes use of "illusion of control" by congratulating the p…

> It is designed to be addictive with compulsion loops and reinforcement, exploiting brain mechanisms you are not aware of such as disproportionate feedback coming directly from slot machines. Candy crush is a sort of glorified skinner box. So, in your opinion what makes something a slot machine is which psychological effects it tries to use? Do you know where else all of these same psychological effects come up? Hum…

So, in your opinion what makes something a slot machine is which psychological effects it tries to use?

I'm not OP, but to me it's the triggered randomness with occasional wins that makes it a slot machine. The intentional psychological effects and engineering to persist the desire to subject oneself to those effects are how King and Zynga are evil companies and deserve to have their corporate charters dissolved. IMHO.

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