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When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

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171–180 of 694 posts

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#171
post #12

> When hiring senior engineers, the company doesn’t choose the candidate, the candidate chooses the company. Does that mean its the candidates fault when they can't find a job?

If you are truly a senior software engineer with all of the common skills living in most metropolitan areas in the US in 2019 and can’t find a job, it most definitely is the fault of the job seeker.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#172
post #104

That's hilarious and so true. Last year I interviewed for a senior back-end engineering position at a well known mid-sized company in the Bay Area. They put me through 2 technical phone screens and a 6 hour onsite interview, grilling me in detail about system design, domain knowledge, personal experience, and of course doing endless exercises of writing solutions to algorithmic problems on a whiteboard. I really felt…

Respectfully, I don’t think you can really determine much from the outside, there are just too many things that happen. Maybe they hired someone and then they ran into visa issues, maybe someone switched to a different team, the possibilities are endless.

One thing I will say is that for many employers, a "no" now doesn't mean a "no" forever.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#173
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongest possible disagree. There are people who can talk all the way down to the point where they're basically dictating code to you, who nevertheless cannot deliver on a real project. There's a difference between knowing, intellectually, how to solve a problem with code, and actually being able to deliver working code . In practice, though, what really seems to happen is that technical interviews are split between…

> It's not like we were asking candidates "hey, how did you enjoy your last software security job?". We were doing something closer to "here's a piece of code with a heap overflow in it; talk us through how you'd write an exploit". It didn't work: there were people who could answer those questions indistinguishably from an exploit developer who nevertheless couldn't write a 1995-era stack overflow exploit if their li…

I don't have a perfect theory for it! It's just something I've repeatedly seen happen.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#174
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't apply at, or respond to recruiters representing, those companies that have a reputation for a long and/or torturous hiring process. While I have no interest in being interrogated with high-stress puzzle solving, it is not the interview process itself that causes my disinterest; it is the understanding, from experience, that how a company treats its potential candidates is often reflective of its general cultu…

This also applies to when you're actually interviewing. I once went through three rounds and they wanted a fourth. No is such a powerful and unexpected word. That they're still talking to you means they're interested but that they haven't offered you the job means they're not 100% sure. This one scenario I said No they came back with an offer. But it was rejected.

Same for assessment centers. Huge red flag.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#175
post #14

I agree with a lot of the points here. One specific pet peeve of mine is job listings that refuse to nail down which specific technologies they're using. Some will say things like "Front-end web development using a framework such as ExtJS, React, Vue, or Angular". Neat - which one? I'm happy to work with 1 or maybe 2 of those. Do you mean that you actually use React but you're fine with people who come from some othe…

I've thought about that a lot, and I wonder if the number of frameworks mentioned in a job posting indicates poor job quality or just an inept hiring manager.

Either way, I purposely avoid those type of job postings. I don't want to waste so much as 10 minutes on a phone screening to find out that even though you mention Ember or React that what you really want is someone with Angular 1 experience.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#176
post #166
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

I recall an interview I was brought into early in my career to talk with someone being brought into be a senior architect... in my mind this meant this dude must be crazy smart right. Everyone in room had all basically made up thier minds and loved the guy. I gave a variable like a = [1,2,4,8,9]; And asked if he could write a loop and print out the values of each element. He embarrassingly could not. I always ask thi…

But are architects supposed to write code? The example you give is embarrassingly simple and anyone should be (expected to be) able to write code for it. But aren't architects designing architecture. I don't think the architect or anyone in his team at my previous organization's IT dept could write code, but he could design system architecture.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#177
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

I disagree. If you can’t tell the difference between a smooth talker and strong technical competence you are probably interested in the wrong qualities. I have interviewed enough now to see why some companies cannot figure it out. Ask yourself if you really actually want a senior or a strong junior.

It comes down to interest. A good senior got that way because they like solving challenging problems. They are not interested in trendy framework bullshit. In other words talk about the problems and potential solutions. Are things in place to make the job easier? Seniors don’t need easier and this is a huge turnoff.

When I hear companies try to sell me with frameworks and process I know they are blowing smoke. At the very least they are boring and at worst you will be working with incompetent people who are as self-diluted as the company. I agree that filtering candidates is a good idea though.

The reason why some companies cannot figure this out is because they don’t value the problems at hand. They need bodies to put fingers on keyboards and are willing to pay more for people who don’t completely suck. Experience and competence are not the same as excellence but considering the candidate pool I can see why companies compromise on quality.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#178
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

What do you do when the person you selected ends up being a wrong fit? Do you try to rehabilitate (makem them fit, if that’s even possible in a small team), of do you cut your loses? What’s worked out for you?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#179
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

I kind of agree and kind of dont. I have a super simple inital question I always ask in interviews: Write me a function, in any language, that takes an array (or list) of integers and returns the sum. 90% of people that can do that are decent, and sadly i'd have to say i'm shocked by how many people struggle with this question, or the follow up of "ok interesting implementation, now what can go wrong at runtime?"

It's a great 15 minute question that I find often correlates highly with the people that get offers.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this "salary first" a little bullshit too. For the most part it's true, but it's not strictly true. If Amazon offers me $180k but I need to work like a slave, but a startup offers $150k but is very chill, I'm gonna choose the startup.

What if Google or Facebook offer you $300k no risk, with a relatively standard work life balance. Then you have to really carefully weigh the startup equity package and how much you enjoy the respective work environments.

> What if Google or Facebook offer you $300k no risk, with a relatively standard work life balance.

If. People here sometimes make it seem like a senior engineer can just walk into a FAANG, chat with the receptionist, and walk out with a $300k offer. While it is certainly not the hardest thing in the world, these companies are still pretty selective and only employ about 10% of the total seniors in the market. More likely than not you are not getting that kind of offer. This isn't even taking into account downleveling, which Google in particular is notorious for.

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