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They Rejected Us

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Re: They Rejected Us

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This resonates. I'm terrible at big tech company interviews--kind of a generalist, read Cicero rather than Knuth in college, tend to start out problems kind of muddled, etc. After a while I concluded the only way to get into large SV companies was to sell a company to them. It's easier to go through due diligence than the corporate interview process in a lot of places. (That's how I got my current job.)

I spent most of my college evening getting drunk with philosophy majors and pretending my math degree meant more than my CS fallback -- but I haven't found the corporate interview system to be that terrible. I do however think it's a game that conflicts with certain personality types, including myself early in my career. I'm always curious what you (or anyone else!) think could be done better.

In my experience SV corporate interview processes are biased in a couple of ways that lead to more homogeneneous and potentially weaker teams.

1.) They select using criteria that are easy to test, such as writing quicksort on the fly. That's a small part of engineering --you also want people who can recognize big-picture patterns and communicate them clearly. This is a lot harder to evaluate so many interviewers simply don't.

2.) They select for people who are already in similar positions. For instance, white-boarding kubernetes application design is pretty easy if you are already doing it. As an interviewer it does not really tell me much about your ability to think originally or whether you can adapt.

Getting around these biases is hard. One way I test people now is to ask them to show me their favorite design or code and explain exactly how it works. That starts them off on comfortable ground. Then I start to tweak the boundary conditions to see if they can adjust creatively. It removes the stress factor and is a lot more illuminating than coding up something totally new from scratch, especially if you only have 45 minutes to extract as much information as possible about somebody's thought processes.

Very interested in other thoughts on this topic. It's a hard problem.

Re: They Rejected Us

#172
Try getting rejected at the final executive approval (i.e., their magic eight-ball) after passing the in-person day and the hiring committee.

Once you've seen the inside of the hiring process, you'll never take this stuff personally again. It's utter garbage. At best, the process manages to select for a few traits that are probably useful, while de-selecting for others they didn't realize were crucial for ultimate success.

If you doubt this, ask yourself how one of the tightest hiring sieves in the world managed to produce Google+.

Re: They Rejected Us

#173
This is an example of and response to the poor state of hiring that takes place in development.

Rarely do I know why I'm rejected, even if I ask but it feels like it could be anything, like a keyword. Applying for jobs is basically Bumble but, less fun. Instead of pics of you on a horse, you have a CV.

I bet if you combined up-front testing (like hackajob) or a boot camp course with short-term contractual work from various companies, you could create a decent hiring funnel too.

Re: They Rejected Us

#174
Thanks for sharing this. I'm switching careers, and I've lost count of how many rejections I've received at this point. Probably my highwater mark so far was getting to Google for an onsite interview. The day after I was so proud for getting there, and not completely bombing the interviews (i.e. I was always able to at least arrive at a solution for the problems, if not always an optimized one). But ultimately that wasn't good enough, and it is back to square one.

It is easy to say, "don't take it personally", but when you're starting from a non-traditional background, and therefore the amount of rejections you receive is probably higher than normal, it is really challenging not to let it get into your head and think maybe you're just not cut out for this line of work.

Re: They Rejected Us

#175
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

Google interviews are four hours long and they don't tell you how did after the interview. There's no way he can possibly know the reason he got rejected.

Not necessarily true, I interviewed for Google once and from the two interview sessions, I have a good idea which one I bombed.

Re: They Rejected Us

#176
post #99
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most interviews are during my work hours. Do you take a day off for each?

You have 2 choices. You can do it discretely; after work hours, no the may not contact my employer. Or, you can do it openly; multi-hour lunch breaks, lots of personal time off, and your LinkedIn profile is super active. The latter will either get you a salary increase or you'll be shown the door. Ask me how I know.

I guess it helps to work remote a lot. Much easier to disappear for a while.

Re: They Rejected Us

#177
post #103

I still can't get over the fact that Google rejected mxcl, author of homebrew, possibly the most important piece of software on OSX, because he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot. Even though they all run it internally. If that isn't the purest, most concentrated form of arbitrary, blind, own-goal beaureaucratic corporate idiocy I don't know what is. And people actual…

> he couldn't remember some useless piece of easily-googleable (ha) CS trivia on the spot.

Or that's what he claimed.

> Even though they all run it internally.

That's what he claimed as well. But never heard of Homebrew while I was at Google, though I had a Macbook for 5+ years. (Well I can't definitely say my Macbook never ran Homebrew - after all, when you are in Google, all such things are handled by dedicated teams. But I can definitely tell that this "scandal" was the first time I heard about Homebrew.)

Not trying to take him down - I'm now in a different company and use Homebrew quite happily, but it's simply not true that it was widely used inside Google.

Re: They Rejected Us

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent most of my college evening getting drunk with philosophy majors and pretending my math degree meant more than my CS fallback -- but I haven't found the corporate interview system to be that terrible. I do however think it's a game that conflicts with certain personality types, including myself early in my career. I'm always curious what you (or anyone else!) think could be done better.

The all day interview process selects for a kind of person who is confortable with arduous processes. With poor scalability. IMO any team with an SLA should be avoiding these people like the plague, because they will tolerate bullshit manual processes that take all day. They have no motivation to make foolproof automated processes with good visibility and repeatability. The smartest of them will fight attempts to cha…

My problem is that it's all cargo cult, and none of it is rationally thought through to pursue desirable qualities in an engineer.

Even within Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Microsoft, you're usually being interviewed by a fresh-out-of-school 20-something who has no idea how to do much of anything, let alone evaluate candidates fairly. And yes, they "train" these kids -- but you basically can't train someone to do something that relies heavily on intuition. That requires experience, but 20-somethings don't have experience. So instead, they're "trained" to do the one thing you can do repeatably: ask coding puzzle questions from a book, and reject anyone who doesn't regurgitate answers with 100% fidelity. It's the McDonald's food of interviewing: not the best (or even good), but consistent across a large organization. Sort of.

So while big companies need people who can work on a team, exercise good judgment, communicate clearly, write clean code and not be racist/sexist/evil jerks, they get...people who can memorize questions from a big book of programming questions. I can easily come up with tests that get to each of those properties...but they rely on interviewers having good judgment, and most do not.

Re: They Rejected Us

#179
post #101
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a senior at university, my friends and I all had a wall at our apartments covered with our rejection letters. Back then (if they gave you the courtesy of a reply) they were sent on paper in the mail. So yes, it's always been that way. I myself have been on interview committees and voted to reject candidates who got hired, and turned out to be good. Why did I want to reject them? Don't really know, just got…

As a nice twist on the rejection postings, while in college I visited a friend at Yale. He and his roommates had hung all three of their Harvard acceptance letters next to each other on the wall.

Maybe it’s just the fact that it’s written out in text but this sounds insufferable, not “nice”.

Re: They Rejected Us

#180
post #39

This is like It Gets Better, but for fragile software engineers who obviously are talented enough to make 6 figures some place else. I understand rejection can feel personal, especially when so much of your life and identity comes from the work you've put into mastering some field, but this doesn't seem like the healthiest mindset. I'm just leaving college now and don't have much of a perspective yet, but the applica…

Is facebook a good bar now? I was thinking facebook isn't so popular, you really want SpaceX or something "better" now. All you validation seekers have to move!

SpaceX isn’t prestigious compared to Facebook.
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