How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage • Hacker News Board

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#171

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 10:28 PM UTC

asianthrowaway wrote: post #85

dao- wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure it's not just you but you could still be wrong. :> What you consider alternative / independent journalists could be charlatans by journalistic standards. It's hard to say in the abstract.

Yeah, establishment journalists consistently provide accurate information, like the time they discovered that huge stockpile of WMDs in Irak.

Any examples that aren’t old enough to have finished high school by now? And were not a major public scandal, that cost the people involved their jobs?

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#172

Post by iodbh » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:08 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #168

iodbh wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been multiple account of what happened as several journalists were present. Here is one of the many articles that have been published, I am linking this testimony by two journalists since liberation is a reputable publication, but you'll find more articles and more witness interviews if you look around. https://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/12/05/la-video-des-... Everybody present has told that the riot…

I'm not going to argue with journalists from la Liberation and have no doubt their testimonials are true. It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. If they really were beating innocent bystanders then they should be punished to the full extent of the law, while at the same time I understand the violent reactio…

This is not some troublemakers breaking things for fun anymore : this is full on state repression, and the violence is not there to stop crimes in progress but to dissuade people from voicing their rejection of the government.

There were highschool protests today. Just look at the videos from this feed, and even with great sympathy for the police, even keeping in mind that context can be missing, I believe you'll see that we are beyond maintaining the civil peace :

https://twitter.com/Obs_Violences

I would argue that the protesters' violence (and i'm not denying there is) is a response to the state's own violence. I was still living in Paris about 2 years, when the protests were peaceful gatherings and the cops were unleashed without provocation, just to prevent people from being together. Repression and disdain form the people have grown the peaceful protests into violent protests, and now the protests are growing into an insurrection.

That's not blind rage, or an appetite for destruction : that is a democracy self-correcting when its government has consistently been too far over the line. That is standing up to the bully.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#173

Post by stef25 » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

iodbh wrote: post #172

stef25 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue with journalists from la Liberation and have no doubt their testimonials are true. It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. If they really were beating innocent bystanders then they should be punished to the full extent of the law, while at the same time I understand the violent reactio…

This is not some troublemakers breaking things for fun anymore : this is full on state repression, and the violence is not there to stop crimes in progress but to dissuade people from voicing their rejection of the government. There were highschool protests today. Just look at the videos from this feed, and even with great sympathy for the police, even keeping in mind that context can be missing, I believe you'll see…

Let me guess, burn-down-the-state anarchist protesting about how oppressed they are in W-Europe? Anyone hiding behind @riseup is just insufferable.

There's plenty of violence from the other side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8CjZv8-HA

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#174

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 9:31 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #47

paganel wrote: post #4

> Sometimes, the social network carries obvious fake news, such as images of bleeding protesters taken two years ago in Spain or spreads the rumors of tanks ready to move against the Yellow Vests (15,000 interactions). This video of senseless police brutality looks in fact to be pretty real and from the latest events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK8b4plAlJQ&feature=youtu.be . Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's lots of…

People getting their ass beat for trying to set fire to a McDonalds while protesting the high cost of living deserve no tears, I'm sorry. Also, if you're going to pick a fight with a crew in full riot gear it's best to not get cornered by them.

It's not the job of the police to administer "punishment" like that on the spot.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#175

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #168

iodbh wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been multiple account of what happened as several journalists were present. Here is one of the many articles that have been published, I am linking this testimony by two journalists since liberation is a reputable publication, but you'll find more articles and more witness interviews if you look around. https://www.liberation.fr/checknews/2018/12/05/la-video-des-... Everybody present has told that the riot…

I'm not going to argue with journalists from la Liberation and have no doubt their testimonials are true. It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. If they really were beating innocent bystanders then they should be punished to the full extent of the law, while at the same time I understand the violent reactio…

> It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free.

It's also not clear why you're excusing police brutality, but you're still doing it.

> I've been in these kind of protests before, you can tell well in advance that things are going to get ugly.

That's all true, but doesn't excuse the police brutality.

> When you have police being attacked from all sides and you intend no harm, you know it's time to gtfo because you will get caught up in the violence.

Oh, so they didn't means you can deduce they "meant to cause harm", and that in turn excuses the harm we see?

No.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#176

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #173

iodbh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not some troublemakers breaking things for fun anymore : this is full on state repression, and the violence is not there to stop crimes in progress but to dissuade people from voicing their rejection of the government. There were highschool protests today. Just look at the videos from this feed, and even with great sympathy for the police, even keeping in mind that context can be missing, I believe you'll see…

Let me guess, burn-down-the-state anarchist protesting about how oppressed they are in W-Europe? Anyone hiding behind @riseup is just insufferable. There's plenty of violence from the other side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8CjZv8-HA

> Anyone hiding behind @riseup is just insufferable.

It's actually you who is hiding behing the fact that there is a riseup email address, as if that allows you to ignore anything, and just "guess".

> There's plenty of violence from the other side

Yeah, collective punishment goes great with police brutality. Anything else?

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#177

Post by stef25 » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 10:03 AM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #175

stef25 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue with journalists from la Liberation and have no doubt their testimonials are true. It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. If they really were beating innocent bystanders then they should be punished to the full extent of the law, while at the same time I understand the violent reactio…

> It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. It's also not clear why you're excusing police brutality, but you're still doing it. > I've been in these kind of protests before, you can tell well in advance that things are going to get ugly. That's all true, but doesn't excuse the police brutality. > When you hav…

> It's also not clear why you're excusing police brutality, but you're still doing it.

The comment you are replying to clearly says that unjustified police brutality should be punished at the full extent of the law.

Violence toward police, bystanders and property is never criticised. Burn down Paris! But as soon as they raise their batons everyone starts crying. If you're going to fight the state at least do it like a man.

If you're convinced France is a totalitarian state your ability to reason is probably quite limited.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#178

Post by stef25 » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 10:07 AM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #174

stef25 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People getting their ass beat for trying to set fire to a McDonalds while protesting the high cost of living deserve no tears, I'm sorry. Also, if you're going to pick a fight with a crew in full riot gear it's best to not get cornered by them.

It's not the job of the police to administer "punishment" like that on the spot.

It's called riot control

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#179

Post by PavlovsCat » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 7:18 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #177

PavlovsCat wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still not clear why they would enter a BK (full of tear gas, according to the journalist) while at least some of the surrounding roads were free. It's also not clear why you're excusing police brutality, but you're still doing it. > I've been in these kind of protests before, you can tell well in advance that things are going to get ugly. That's all true, but doesn't excuse the police brutality. > When you hav…

> It's also not clear why you're excusing police brutality, but you're still doing it. The comment you are replying to clearly says that unjustified police brutality should be punished at the full extent of the law. Violence toward police, bystanders and property is never criticised. Burn down Paris! But as soon as they raise their batons everyone starts crying. If you're going to fight the state at least do it like…

> The comment you are replying to clearly says that unjustified police brutality should be punished at the full extent of the law.

Yeah, and you still leave it open whether it might be "justified", it goes on to say "When you have police being attacked from all sides and you intend no harm". Which prompted the following question you seem to avoided:

> Oh, so they didn't means you can deduce they "meant to cause harm", and that in turn excuses the harm we see?

So you think "unjustified police brutality" should be punished, (by the full extent of the law no less, how very generous and princpliped!), but you still leave this on the table:

> People getting their ass beat for trying to set fire to a McDonalds while protesting the high cost of living deserve no tears, I'm sorry.

> If you're convinced France is a totalitarian state your ability to reason is probably quite limited.

That's a total non-sequitur. Right now, you're not even up to speed on the meaning of your own comments heh, no need to insult me to distract from that. I'm not talking to France as a nation, I'm talking to you. If you think you can just handwave a bit and play sophistry games and call me stupid you're mistaken.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#180

Post by PavlovsCat » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 7:20 AM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #178

PavlovsCat wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the job of the police to administer "punishment" like that on the spot.

It's called riot control

How so? Is it just "France is not a totalitarian nation", so it's riot contol by definition?

Or is it because "the other side" also rioted in other instances and/or previously in that scene, and you think collective punishment is a thing -- while talking about the "full extent of the law" at the same time no less?

Just by all the stuff you brought up to excuse and distract from it, by how bankrupt it is to just go "France is not a totalitarian nation, if you think that you're stupid bai" -- I would guess you know what this is.

When I saw this a few months ago

https://twitter.com/SeinUndSeid/status/1045656778342629376

which is so cute and harmless in contrast, I was called all sorts of names for saying this is totally uncalled for, unaccetable. Everybody else in that thread was super righteous about protecting the upstanding police blah blah blah. (When in fact the opposite is true, being spineless and excusing this stuff is supporting thugs, and stabbing ALL professional police in the back.)

They called it riot control, too. Self-defense, even, someone understandably snapping at their poor colleagues being so horribly mistreated by the crowd, so kicking at a guy who is already held down by 500 guys is obviously normal. Just like you, they mentioned what "the other side" was doing. NO TEARS for someone resisting arrest near an angry crowd! How principled they were, what upstanding, well educated, democratic, intelligent citizens they were, and what a little hoodlum I was for talking back.

The most hilarious plot twist there was it turned out it was civilians that stopped other civilians from throwing bottles, the police with their liberal use of pepper spray, and kicking that guy, achieved jack shit in that regard.

Anyway, the Berliner Polizei saw it more like me rather than the people who had defended the abuse. Their press release actually was amended with something about an officer "arriving and kicking at the fixated person", and started an investigation about that. It sounded serious too, they didn't use any euphemisms at all. They made no effort to call police brutality anything but that, in total contrast to the posts that had defended it.

I don't know how good or bad the French police is, but I know potential for denazification when I see it. Which has nothing to do with whole nations, but by definition with individuals and individual actions. Cops like that need to be punished period, if the law shields them, then the law needs to be changed.