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Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

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Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#171
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask good questions, and raise good points. Since one can't read all the primary sources, how can you decide who to trust? In this case, I don't think there is a simple and logically defensible answer. Normally, your best bet would be to trust that the recognized experts in the field probably have it right. But I think Climate Science is so politicized at this point that unless you can sit down and have a beer at…

As best as I can tell, the politicization of climate science is a deliberate action by those opposed to the actions which will result from accepting the validity of its conclusions. It's the same sort of propaganda effort which fought against the recognition of the link between cigarettes and lung cancer. It's the same sort of effort which tries to get creationism in its varied forms taught as part of a science educa…

Dissenters and outsiders who are refused entry cannot be the ones politicizing the issue.

If they were, they wouldn't be impotent. It makes no sense.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As best as I can tell, the politicization of climate science is a deliberate action by those opposed to the actions which will result from accepting the validity of its conclusions. It's the same sort of propaganda effort which fought against the recognition of the link between cigarettes and lung cancer. It's the same sort of effort which tries to get creationism in its varied forms taught as part of a science educa…

Dissenters and outsiders who are refused entry cannot be the ones politicizing the issue. If they were, they wouldn't be impotent. It makes no sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are only looking at one group of people in your analysis, while the politicizing occurs among a much larger group of people.

All evidence leads to the strong conclusion that creationism is not a viable way to understand geology, paleontology, biology, and a dozen other fields.

While modern biology does not exist without the concept of evolution to bind things together.

Yet there was/is a large push to teach creationism in some form or other ("intelligent design") as being co-equal with evolution, or a viable and meaningful alternative. The phrase was "teach the controversy", as promoted by the Discovery Institute - a dissenter/outsider organization with respect to science.

But biologists are the outsiders to what it taught in school. While members of a large and powerful subgroup of American Christians believe that creationism must be correct, as a matter of religious faith. These people can use their political power to manufacture the perception of dissent. And get schools to teach creation science and disparage evolution, despite the lack of a scientific basis for either.

It wasn't biologists who passed the Louisiana Science Education Act, which specifically calls for support for those wanting to criticize evolutionary theory ... and global warming.

Similarly, climatologists are the outsiders when it comes to policy decisions related to human-generated wastes, like CO2.

You know how I know? Look how impotent they are.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dissenters and outsiders who are refused entry cannot be the ones politicizing the issue. If they were, they wouldn't be impotent. It makes no sense.

It doesn't make sense because you are only looking at one group of people in your analysis, while the politicizing occurs among a much larger group of people. All evidence leads to the strong conclusion that creationism is not a viable way to understand geology, paleontology, biology, and a dozen other fields. While modern biology does not exist without the concept of evolution to bind things together. Yet there was/…

Creationism is not talked about in public schools. Biology and evolution are.

I'm not sure you're proving the point you think you are. At least I don't understand how you think the dominant ideology which has displaced all others and allows no dissent is the one that is the underdog, and anyone criticizing the dominant ideology is politicizing the issue.

It is a self serving argument that was used to deny most science ever. From gallileo to the ideolization of Newton which stalled physics for generations.

Orthodoxy is anathema to science. Either reality agrees with your argument or it doesn't. No one should have the power or authority to deny access to people based on differing opinions. Otherwise the only solution to the contention is violence.

Instead one should focus on respectful dialogue where you treat the other person with respect. You don't have to agree. You don't have to defend the position. But you have to treat everyone with respect. Otherwise we don't have science, we have a religion.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make sense because you are only looking at one group of people in your analysis, while the politicizing occurs among a much larger group of people. All evidence leads to the strong conclusion that creationism is not a viable way to understand geology, paleontology, biology, and a dozen other fields. While modern biology does not exist without the concept of evolution to bind things together. Yet there was/…

Creationism is not talked about in public schools. Biology and evolution are. I'm not sure you're proving the point you think you are. At least I don't understand how you think the dominant ideology which has displaced all others and allows no dissent is the one that is the underdog, and anyone criticizing the dominant ideology is politicizing the issue. It is a self serving argument that was used to deny most scienc…

I did not say that creationism is talked about in public schools. That would be illegal, as affirmed in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.

Note that the Dover school district required the teaching of intelligent design, which is a form of creationism.

I wrote "Yet there was/is a large push to teach creationism in some form or other ("intelligent design") as being co-equal with evolution".

The "was" exists specifically to point to Dover as an example of teaching creationism in schools.

My statement also includes charter schools. (Charter schools are not public schools.) For example, quoting from https://slate.com/technology/2014/01/creationism-in-texas-pu... :

> When public-school students enrolled in Texas’ largest charter program open their biology workbooks, they will read that the fossil record is “sketchy.” That evolution is “dogma” and an “unproved theory” with no experimental basis. They will be told that leading scientists dispute the mechanisms of evolution and the age of the Earth. These are all lies.

My statement more specifically refers to the people doing the pushing, which includes the current US vice president. When he in the House of Representatives he said (quoting https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2002/7/11/hous... ):

> The truth is [evolution] always was a theory, Mr. Speaker. And now that we have recognized evolution as a theory, I would simply and humbly ask, can we teach it as such and can we also consider teaching other theories of the origin of species?

He has declined to inform us on any changes to his views.

You have not demonstrated that "the dominant ideology .. allows no dissent", etc.

I agree that the "dominant ideology" - a politicized way to say 'the considered opinion by those with the most training on the topic' - says that the views of climate change denialists - a politicized way to say 'those who do not believe there is global warming and/or that human action is a significant driver of that warming - has the strength of evidence behind it.

Just like the views of creationists do not have the strength of evidence behind them.

In other words, they are wrong. If they are wrong, why should they be granted an undeserved platform?

I don't understand the rest of your commentary. Were you treating me with respect by presenting a strawman position of my statement?

Most of your text appears so highly abstract that it's meaningless. Should the 'Smithsonian Barbie' be published in Science magazine as a new paleontological find, or would the orthodoxy prevent that from happening? What violence will result by preventing that path as a way to spread knowledge of 'ravenous man-eating Pliocene clams'?

What you wrote reminds me of a criticism by Martin Luther King:

> I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Based on your comment, I believe you are more devoted to order and the absence of tension to justice.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creationism is not talked about in public schools. Biology and evolution are. I'm not sure you're proving the point you think you are. At least I don't understand how you think the dominant ideology which has displaced all others and allows no dissent is the one that is the underdog, and anyone criticizing the dominant ideology is politicizing the issue. It is a self serving argument that was used to deny most scienc…

I did not say that creationism is talked about in public schools. That would be illegal, as affirmed in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Note that the Dover school district required the teaching of intelligent design, which is a form of creationism. I wrote "Yet there was/is a large push to teach creationism in some form or other ("intelligent design") as being co-equal with evolution". The "was" exists spec…

You believe that marginalized people in society making something political is illegitimate if you disagree, and legitimate if you agree.

That is my criticism of your world view. I did not straw man, you are actively explain how a group of people in society are opressed, but you're OK because it was legal.

I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry. We fundamentally disagree on what type of society we live in. I believe in human rights, liberty, and freedom of association. You believe in an administrative state that punishes you for saying blasphemy.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say that creationism is talked about in public schools. That would be illegal, as affirmed in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Note that the Dover school district required the teaching of intelligent design, which is a form of creationism. I wrote "Yet there was/is a large push to teach creationism in some form or other ("intelligent design") as being co-equal with evolution". The "was" exists spec…

You believe that marginalized people in society making something political is illegitimate if you disagree, and legitimate if you agree. That is my criticism of your world view. I did not straw man, you are actively explain how a group of people in society are opressed, but you're OK because it was legal. I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry. We fundamentally disagree on what type of soc…

Where did I ever say that?

What oppression are you even talking about?

I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry

We do not live in that ideologically pure world.

You are the sort of person who let businesses discriminate based on race, because you shy away from having the force of law protect the politically weak?

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You believe that marginalized people in society making something political is illegitimate if you disagree, and legitimate if you agree. That is my criticism of your world view. I did not straw man, you are actively explain how a group of people in society are opressed, but you're OK because it was legal. I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry. We fundamentally disagree on what type of soc…

Where did I ever say that? What oppression are you even talking about? I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry We do not live in that ideologically pure world. You are the sort of person who let businesses discriminate based on race, because you shy away from having the force of law protect the politically weak?

You're the one who forces the government to discriminate because you don't like the world. You just define "politically weak" as people you like and "politically strong" as people you don't. As I keep pointing out.

It is incoherent to say the people who are not allowed to say words are the ones who are oppressing the ones who legislated their ideas as illegal. Sorry.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I ever say that? What oppression are you even talking about? I don't believe in using force to gain compliance of the citizenry We do not live in that ideologically pure world. You are the sort of person who let businesses discriminate based on race, because you shy away from having the force of law protect the politically weak?

You're the one who forces the government to discriminate because you don't like the world. You just define "politically weak" as people you like and "politically strong" as people you don't. As I keep pointing out. It is incoherent to say the people who are not allowed to say words are the ones who are oppressing the ones who legislated their ideas as illegal. Sorry.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. You are speaking in such generalizations that it can mean anything.

Which cases of oppression are you referring to?

Where did I define "politically weak" as people I like, etc?

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one who forces the government to discriminate because you don't like the world. You just define "politically weak" as people you like and "politically strong" as people you don't. As I keep pointing out. It is incoherent to say the people who are not allowed to say words are the ones who are oppressing the ones who legislated their ideas as illegal. Sorry.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. You are speaking in such generalizations that it can mean anything. Which cases of oppression are you referring to? Where did I define "politically weak" as people I like, etc?

The problem is you don't view it as oppression because your worldview is one where group rights exist. I don't believe in group rights, I believe in human rights. You don't, and that's fine.

But fundamentally it is your lack of understanding of the past, while being super sure of your position, that I find most interesting. You think that in the past that the bad companies were discriminating based on race, and then the good government came in and fixed it.

This is a completely incoherent reading of history. In fact it was the bad government forcing all companies, good and bad, to discriminate based on race. That's why they were Jim crow _laws_, not Jim Crow _suggestions_. The government was forcing people to discriminate based on race (like you probably do when you support things like affirmative action, etc).

I see history as Plessy V Fergusson. Where the railway didn't want to have discrimination so they challenged the law. Unfortunately people like you, who want to use the force of government to discriminate won.

Now you can object and say you want different discrimination so you're better than those people. Personally, as someone who believes in human rights i don't see a major difference between you and them. Just in who you want to discriminate against, but no ideological difference.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. You are speaking in such generalizations that it can mean anything. Which cases of oppression are you referring to? Where did I define "politically weak" as people I like, etc?

The problem is you don't view it as oppression because your worldview is one where group rights exist. I don't believe in group rights, I believe in human rights. You don't, and that's fine. But fundamentally it is your lack of understanding of the past, while being super sure of your position, that I find most interesting. You think that in the past that the bad companies were discriminating based on race, and then…

You have such a straw man interpretation of me that I cannot respond. You truly think I have such a simplified and laughable understanding of the history of racism in the US?

Please indicate where you drew your conclusion.

I didn't even talk about Jim Crow laws. I said:

> You are the sort of person who let businesses discriminate based on race, because you shy away from having the force of law protect the politically weak?

This is the present tense. Not the past.

Your view is that you want the Civil Rights Acts, the ADA, and the like to be abolished, yes?

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