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Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

reuters.com

171–180 of 433 posts

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#171
post #12

This is a direct and clear example of bias which made it easy to flag the ML algorithm. But what about ML algorithms that are inducing benefits to groups in less obvious contexts? What about groups that are not so easily identified as being protected classes by simple, human-understandable model features? What about cases where the features are just merely correlated with a subpopulation of a protected class? If we'r…

> the features are just merely correlated with a subpopulation of a protected class

The article notes that Amazon's system rated down grads from two all-women's schools. But it immediately occurs to me to wonder what the algorithm did with candidates from heavily gender-imbalanced schools, which could be much harder to spot.

RPI's Computer Science department is about 85% male, while CMU's is just over 50% male. CMU's CS department is also considered one of the best in the world, and presumably any functional algorithm that cared about alma mater would respond to that. So if the bias ends up being "because of CMU's gender ratio, CMU grads with gender-unclear resumes are advantaged slightly less than otherwise would be", how on earth would someone spot that?

Once you're looking for it, you could potentially retrain with some data set like "RPI resumes, but we adjusted their gendered-words rate" and see if you get a different outcome on your test set. But that's both a labor intensive task, and one that's only approachable once you already know what you're looking for. And even if you do see a change, you'd still have to tease it out from a dozen other hypotheses like "certain schools have more organizations with gendered names, and the algorithm can't tell that those organizations are a proxy for school".

Of course, the counterpoint is that human decisions can't be scrutinized any better, and it's not entirely clear they're less arbitrary or more ethical. At a certain point algorithmic approaches are being scrutinized because they're slightly transparent and testable, so running them on a range of counterfactuals or breaking down their choices is hard rather than impossible. I suspect that's true, but it doesn't really comfort me - humans at least tend to misbehave along certain predictable axes we can try to mitigate, while ML systems can blindside us with all sorts of new and unexpected forms of badness.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#172
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lower certainty would in turn lead to lower rankings for women even without any bias in the data. I don't think that's true. "No bias" means that gender is irrelevant (i.e. its correlation with outcome is 0%). Therefore the system shouldn't even take it into account - it would evaluate both men and women just by other criteria (experience, technical skills, etc), and it would have equal amounts of data for both…

> "No bias" means that gender is irrelevant False. If we're talking about the technical statistical definition, bias means systematic deviation from the underlying truth in the data -- see this article by Chris Stucchio with some images for clarification: https://jacobitemag.com/2017/08/29/a-i-bias-doesnt-mean-what... "In statistics, a “bias” is defined as a statistical predictor which makes errors that all have the…

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Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#173
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if you're hiring professional arm wrestlers, and your model looks at bicep muscle mass, is that discrimination because it selects against women? If you're hiring therapists, and your candidates take a personality test, and your ML model weights the 'nurturing' feature highly, is that discrimination because it selects against men?

Underlying your examples is the implication that a preference shouldn't be considered discriminatory if the trait being selected for correlates with fitness. I agree with this position! What I don't agree with is the assumption that, in this case, the preferred traits do correlate with fitness, since there's at least one — gender — for which this model is biased even though it has no apparent correlation.

Ya, I just mean to say that uncorrelation with fitness is an important qualifier.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#174
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole aim of the AI was to make decisions like the recruiters did -- that is explicitly what they were aiming to do. It might be worth reading the article as it addresses your two ideas (the aim of the project and the fact that the training set was indeed heavily male).

Hey. I did read the article. It doesn’t support the conclusion OP is drawing. The aim of the AI is to “mechanize the search for talent”. It doesn’t care to, nor have any means to, make decisions “like the recruiters did”. Obviously machines don’t make decisions like humans do. They’re trying to reverse engineer an alternate decisions making process from the previous outcomes.

> The aim of the AI is to “mechanize the search for talent”. It doesn’t care to, nor have any means to, make decisions “like the recruiters did”.

This is why AI is so confusing. All "AI" does is rapidly accelerate human decisions by not involving them, so that speed and consistency are guaranteed. They are not replacements for human decision making, they are replacements for human decision making at scale.

If we can't figure out how to do unbiased interviews at the individual level, then AI will never solve this problem. Anyone that tells you otherwise is selling you snake oil.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#175
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they could be unbiased while still amassing a data set that skewed heavily male" - this sounds like a self contradiction

Is the NBA biased against white guys?

I don't know - is it? What is the difference between bias and inferring information from skewed data?

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#176
post #27
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not "women are just not as interested in math, logic and computer science to pursue it AS OFTEN as men"? Why are you not considering this possibility?

Ah, the Damore argument. Besides the fact that his psuedo science has been summarily handled[0], to consider his argument you then have to equally consider the possibility of sexism in academia pressuring women to not study these subjects and societal pressure their whole lives pressuring them to not persue these career paths. There's also the idea that lack of women scientist "heroes" can be limiting (lack of role m…

Where was it disproven? The article says that the research was controversial, not that it's false.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#177

I would guess that the training data for the ML set was the set of all resumes and an indicator of whether the candidate was eventually hired (maybe with supplemental data about how far in the process the candidate got). Could this be a direct indicator of a powerful subconscious bias in Amazon's existing hiring process?

Step into your engineering or computer science department and walk into any upper division class and count the females and count the males. That some companies have upwards of 20% females is more likely indicative of extreme bias in hiring as you're not going to find even remotely close to 20% females there. Enter in most measures of competence and you'll find the division is no different. E.g. - if females were bein…

"I've no regrets there, but it's not so clear that my persuasion was really the best idea."

Does she make more money than a similar person with a degree in sociology?

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#178

This will be unpopular but I don't care. What is the evidence that the source data for this 'AI' is biased because the men it came from did not want to hire women? Is there a reserve of unemployed non-male engineers out there? If so what evidence is there of that? Technical talent is both expensive and a rare commodity for tech companies. The non-male engineers I've worked with have always been exceedingly competent,…

Oh, there are a bunch of us, even here in the SF Bay Area. Trouble is, we're older than 35, or don't have degrees from "top" schools, and/or don't have the "passion" for bizarre extended hiring rituals. I could staff an entire dev team with non-male people within a week.

I don't have any sort of degree beyond high school and I have been a programmer/engineer for almost 15 years. Do I work at top tech companies? No. But that doesn't mean people like us can't be hired in the industry.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One issue that keeps happening is an over-emphasis on CS-related questions No. If you go down that path, then you are implying that women do in fact perform worse at CS-related questions. That's a much bigger can of worms than the bias being implicated here.

Hopefully we can at least agree that those questions are limited in effectiveness, and often have no actual relation to how good an engineer is. It varies of course. Sometimes, they seem more like a secret handshake you need to memorize to get into the boys club than actually useful engineering. Who hasn't had to revise some of these before applying for a job 3 years out of college? What it does do is effectively exc…

There is an interesting tangent in this thread where we can wonder what it would reveal if "coding interview" type CS tests were administered along with standard IQ tests (or the application included SAT scores). Do coding tests predict work performance better or worse than an IQ test? If worse, are they merely "culture fit" bias filters meant to retain the ingroup? If better, is it because culture fit actually matters, or because there is in fact some CS-specific skill or set of assumed knowledge that matters in programming that goes beyond logic?

While I understand that using IQ tests as hiring predictors is itself a problem, I'm interested in the interplay in predictive ability between the two classes of tests. I think everyone would agree that any primarily intellectual timed test that was _less_ salient to work performance than an IQ test should be binned. What would happen to our interviews then?

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