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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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171–180 of 408 posts

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

> (the car tax is) paid for by people in suburbia who _have_ to own a car to survive.

I have been wondering for a little while now if the extreme libertarian position on private roads has been vindicated. I am not sure yet, but it seems possible where once it was ridiculous.

Starting with (let us say) World war two, cities and states built out substantial, publicly funded roads and road networks in order to connect up newly developed sub-urban centres that were designed for car owners. These new centres were affordable for the emerging middle classes, who migrated there en-masse. This co-incided with the baby-boom, which was partly possible due to cheap housing.

But this left the inner cities to die slow deaths where immigration was not high. (Side note: This is more true of American towns, in Australia I don't know that we had the dramatic changes seen in the highly industrialised centres of the USA.) So it possibly boosted the middle class at the expense of the lower class (?) and it created huge urban sprawl.

Would private roads, paid for collectively by the developers or residents of those suburbs, have helped to alleviate or reduce the problems outlined above?

I am spitballing here, and it is a little off-topic, but please indulge me!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#172
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. Carbon taxing works well when it's applied - but it's very hard to create the political consensus to impose it. For example, the high cost of fuel in Europe has driven cars to an average MPG equivalent of 45 versus the average of 33 in US. That's nothing to sneeze at, it's 40% more for a given am…

Don't forget US Gallons are smaller than "proper" imperial ones

OP is using US gallons, though.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#173
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20% I believe https://www.tesla.com/da_DK/support/incentives (Danish)

Yes but thats 20% of the 150% so more like 30%. As the system is now, it will be 40% of the 150% by january.

So you're saying the taxes on a 65.200 USD car will increase by 30.000 USD, with only 8.000 USD in discounts to offset the increase?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder at this. I've seen those expensive repair bills and they're usually expensive relative to the value of the car to be repaired, but they're cheap relative to the cost of a brand new car.

You can get a loan for a new car, you can't get a loan for repairs. If you manage money well this is rarely a problem, but if you don't then you have no savings to pay for the repairs. The other problem with repair is what else is wrong and what will that cost to repair. I've been told that there are people who trade their cars in when the tires are worn out - it kicks the payments down the road a month (they have to…

My experience has been exactly the opposite. Everyone I know who trades out cars every year or so does it because they want the latest and greatest, or just something new and different, not because they can't afford to repair it. The people I know who have more limited means tend to drive their cars until the wheels fall off, and they are pretty familiar with their mechanic. I'm a little too impatient for that myself, I have a fairly low threshold of 'how many is too many repairs' before I dump a car and get something with less hassle.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#175

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there.

While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#176
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.

Yeah, so, the first thing to know about that is ICE is ludicrously inefficient. Spinning all that metal at variable speed with tiny explosions is, unsurprisingly, not the best way to turn high density fuels into energy. The thing ICE had on its side is the energy density, on other metrics it's a bad deal (hence why free charging for EVs is affordable) So if you have 400MW of ICE cars you don't need 400MW of electrici…

Getting some rough numbers from Wikipedia it looks like most common new cars are sitting around 35% thermal efficiency. I believe a formula 1 engine achieved 50% thermal efficiency recently but the cost of that is obscenely high. Where as electric motor efficiency easily hits 90%+.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

> that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more

And yet the average age of the car in Denmark is 8.9 years [1]. For comparison Germany is at 9.3 year, and US is at 11.6 years [2]

[1] http://www.aut.fi/en/statistics/international_statistics/ave... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261881/average-age-of-li...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#178
post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

This is why I consider my 1990 Volvo a comparatively environmentally friendly car. Very reliable and much cheaper to maintain and repair than a new electronics laden alternative.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some disadvantages of electric cars which may or may not be solvable.

Such as? If you're saying "range", I counter that most trips (e.g. most commutes) are well within the range limits of current BEVs.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Go look up the arguments yourself, and this time open your mind: range is a valid argument to the people making it. Even if realistically it isn't nearly as big a deal as they think, mental peace is more important than you seem to give it credit for.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some disadvantages of electric cars which may or may not be solvable.

Such as? If you're saying "range", I counter that most trips (e.g. most commutes) are well within the range limits of current BEVs.

Such as commuting an hour to work, that may turn out to be two, in Toronto's gridlock, during a cold wave of -45c.

"Most trips" doesn't work, the EV proponents want a ban on all ICE cars. Which would force part of the population to buy a truck and commute with it.

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