Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#171

Post by ChristianBundy » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #154

kaybe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany almost every shop is closed on Sundays, with a similar idea behind it. Only the most necessary jobs are done (firefighters and hospital workers) and there is free time for everyone to relax. Now just to tone down the electricity usage.. (but actually Sundays is a good day to use electricity in your home because the commercial use is so much lower)

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

Just to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't the decision be up to the community that provides land and infrastructure to the business on the terms of following local regulations?

I'm not sure it's so cut and dry to assume that the individualist "free" "market" approach is always optimal. What are we optimizing for? If we're optimizing for freedom, freedom for who to do what? Freedom from what?

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#172

Post by oldandtired » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #154

kaybe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany almost every shop is closed on Sundays, with a similar idea behind it. Only the most necessary jobs are done (firefighters and hospital workers) and there is free time for everyone to relax. Now just to tone down the electricity usage.. (but actually Sundays is a good day to use electricity in your home because the commercial use is so much lower)

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

There is more than just the owner and consumer involved here. it also includes any staff that the owner employs.

If you, as an owner, decide that you want to open 7 days a week, and you have staff that are happy to do 6 days and want/desire the 7th day off, what do you do in relation to those staff? Sack them? Employ others for that 7th day who are willing to work on that day and keep the others on for the other 6 days? Pay penalty rates for the privilege of having your business open 7 days a week?

I have come across many owners that would have no problems just straight up sacking people who are not interested in killing themselves for the business owner. They expect you to work under all and every condition that the business owner puts in place - seeing that since they have given someone a job then that employee is owned by the owner. I have even worked for some such people.

As the business owner, are you willing to work 7 days a week in your own business at the expense of your family life, health, relaxation, etc? These questions need to be carefully considered in a very personal way for there are much broader consequences than you may think.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#173

Post by danschumann » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

jVinc wrote: post #122

danschumann wrote: post #47

Plenty of religious things are not superstitious, but based on real psychological needs.. people who dismiss them as pure fantasies are missing the point. New Testament is full of such things helpful for psychological maintenance and emotional well-being, if you can get the metaphors. It's why the stories and practice of them have survived so long (because the practicioners survived more frequently and/or saw the val…

Well of cause. People don't dismiss "religious things" like singing, gathering together or confiding in others. They dismiss the religious part of those things. And the assumption that wearing spaghetti strainers or turning off your phone on the weekends will somehow bring you closer to the giant spaghetti monster in the sky. > It's why the stories and practice of them have survived so long (because the practitioners…

Words have definitions, but also words are like functions that run in the brain. `mentionSpagettiMonster() { feelSuperior(); if( opponent.unskilled ) winArgument(); }`

Religion hasn't been killing people in order to spread, or stay spread ( except in certain mid-east countries), for hundreds of years, it would only take a short time after stopping the killing for the religion to die, and why would anyone care enough to kill someone, if there wasn't something there?

You "worship" - "attributing great value"/"worth-ship" to a spagetti monster, because you see the value in winning the argument, and you think it helps you win. However, the value is only transferred from the person you're arguing with. My value comes from God, and you maybe are arguing because you want some value, but in a competive way, not a creative way. Through God, a person can infinitely feel value, and that feels good, and that spills into their life, and they're able to treat people better around them, and everyone wins. In your scenario, you have to be like a vampire, and you only feel value based on your proximity to someone you feel is dumber than you ( based on your knowledge of their beliefs, which is a straw man at best ).

Read the new testament, at least then you can win a steelman argument, rather than one without a heart.

(and if you want to reply again with more rage, first ask yourself, "am I taking this position, because it would be a lot of work to read the New Testament, and I'm lazy, but if I'm outraged, that can be my excuse?" -- because I warn you, it is more work than you can currently imagine, all the implications that will come up, and the work of real change [ transformation hurts like death on a cross, but every butterfly does it ] )

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#174

Post by billfruit » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

oldandtired wrote: post #172

briandear wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

There is more than just the owner and consumer involved here. it also includes any staff that the owner employs. If you, as an owner, decide that you want to open 7 days a week, and you have staff that are happy to do 6 days and want/desire the 7th day off, what do you do in relation to those staff? Sack them? Employ others for that 7th day who are willing to work on that day and keep the others on for the other 6 da…

I think most 7day employers like retailers having rotating staff rosters, so that the employees will be doing 4-5 day weeks only.

In fact perhaps having a mandatory closed holiday may mean that many people wouldn't have the jobs they have now.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#175

Post by Zanni » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:58 AM UTC

saudioger wrote: post #149

throwaway715875 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Jewish but not religious anymore, and I know a lot of people that keep Shabbat that talk like this. Frankly, I don't buy it. If we have a problem with detaching from technology, then, stopping all usage of it only one day a week is maybe 90% as unhealthy. It would be like saying you have a healthy relationship with smoking because you don't smoke at all for one day a week, but after that you can chain smoke 24/6.…

Surely chain smoking for 6 days is healthier than chain smoking for 7

Specifically with regard to smoking, I imagine if you can go one day without smoking, you're probably not chain-smoking the other six days. You have to adjust your habit so that it's not onerous to go without for a 24-hour period. That's going to put the brakes on a bit.

Disclaimer: Not a smoker, dated smokers.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#176

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:13 AM UTC

ChristianBundy wrote: post #171

briandear wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

Just to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't the decision be up to the community that provides land and infrastructure to the business on the terms of following local regulations? I'm not sure it's so cut and dry to assume that the individualist "free" "market" approach is always optimal. What are we optimizing for? If we're optimizing for freedom, freedom for who to do what ? Freedom from what ?

what right do they have to decide which day you can work or not? Asia has thriving commerce in comparison with Europe precisely because there is no fixed day to close and you can always go out and find something open.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#177

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:15 AM UTC

oldandtired wrote: post #172

briandear wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

There is more than just the owner and consumer involved here. it also includes any staff that the owner employs. If you, as an owner, decide that you want to open 7 days a week, and you have staff that are happy to do 6 days and want/desire the 7th day off, what do you do in relation to those staff? Sack them? Employ others for that 7th day who are willing to work on that day and keep the others on for the other 6 da…

Ridiculous argument. There are laws governing how many employees can work a week and no employee can be made to work 7 days per week. The only solution for an employer is to arrange shifts between different employees and this is how it works in practice.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#178

Post by saalweachter » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:23 AM UTC

ChristianBundy wrote: post #171

briandear wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is laws dictating it. Perhaps I want to open my store on Sunday: why is it government’s business? Shouldn’t freedom matter? When I was in France, mandatory closing was horrible. It isn’t like I can go to the French equivalent of Home Depot during the work day. There is always Saturday, but effectively limiting by law to one shopping day per week is ridiculous. It should be the choice of the business owner…

Just to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't the decision be up to the community that provides land and infrastructure to the business on the terms of following local regulations? I'm not sure it's so cut and dry to assume that the individualist "free" "market" approach is always optimal. What are we optimizing for? If we're optimizing for freedom, freedom for who to do what ? Freedom from what ?

Ultimately it is up to government to set the rules by which businesses operate, because market forces (and shitty business owners) tend to maximize profit at the expense of everything else. Government dictating certain bounds means that businesses which want to do things that don’t maximize short-term profit - like paying employees a living wage, not dump pollutants into rivers, or manufacturing non-contaminated foods and drugs - aren’t competing against businesses which are willing to burn down the world for profit.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#179

Post by fiter » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:42 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #156

jVinc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of cause. People don't dismiss "religious things" like singing, gathering together or confiding in others. They dismiss the religious part of those things. And the assumption that wearing spaghetti strainers or turning off your phone on the weekends will somehow bring you closer to the giant spaghetti monster in the sky. > It's why the stories and practice of them have survived so long (because the practitioners…

> to the giant spaghetti monster in the sky. It seems like you could make your point without going out of your way to insult people. You don’t have to believe in anything, but wouldn’t it be considered “hate speech” to essentially besmirch those that believe in God? If we said something about an ethnicity’s cultural traditions, would that be acceptable on HN? Of course not. But somehow making fun of someone’s religio…

I think we should be able to make fun of anything. I like that world better.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#180

Post by fiter » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

danschumann wrote: post #173

jVinc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of cause. People don't dismiss "religious things" like singing, gathering together or confiding in others. They dismiss the religious part of those things. And the assumption that wearing spaghetti strainers or turning off your phone on the weekends will somehow bring you closer to the giant spaghetti monster in the sky. > It's why the stories and practice of them have survived so long (because the practitioners…

Words have definitions, but also words are like functions that run in the brain. `mentionSpagettiMonster() { feelSuperior(); if( opponent.unskilled ) winArgument(); }` Religion hasn't been killing people in order to spread, or stay spread ( except in certain mid-east countries), for hundreds of years, it would only take a short time after stopping the killing for the religion to die, and why would anyone care enough…

You can find something funny without feeling superior to it. Life is absurd!