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What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

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Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#171
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still hard to know what this means. For example, all the senior engineers I currently work with are great at telling a story about how they look to hire based on talent, self-awareness, critical thinking, and many soft skills, and that the technical particulars are only incidental guideposts. Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from…

> Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from the interview if the running time complexity would be too high or if they can’t mathematically prove the result would be a uniform draw from the space of permutations of the cards. I'd actually expect a surprisingly large fraction of programmers to be able to do reasonably OK on that particular…

It possibly depends when you started programming. When I was making those kind of games and such things my environment had a built in shuffle call that worked fine...

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#173
Huh. I reserve "culture fit" to mean "did the candidate make racist, sexist, or ageist remarks (or other such similar remarks about something absolutely unrelated to actual engineering)?"

I've yet to not hire someone under this. (Though I have one person who I would not hire today, but I still do not know how I would have screened for them in the interview.)

Seems like I'm the only one, though. The rest of the comments seem to indicate looking for something deeper.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#174

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

I guess I’m an “older coder”, though my knees are doing OK, but never in my life would I have wanted to work at a place where there’s mandatory attendance at ski trips and zip-lining. That sounds utterly awful. Maybe you’re attributing something to age that is just a matter of taste? And maybe that’s not a good way to limit your hiring?

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#175

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

> Over time, almost everyone in the team looked for opportunities to transfer to other teams (and sometimes companies) that looked like they were having more fun.

To me that sounds like the team was pretty immature and ended up failing the team.

You can still do all of those things and work with people who don't.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#176
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

I guess I’m an “older coder”, though my knees are doing OK, but never in my life would I have wanted to work at a place where there’s mandatory attendance at ski trips and zip-lining. That sounds utterly awful. Maybe you’re attributing something to age that is just a matter of taste? And maybe that’s not a good way to limit your hiring?

Nothing was mandatory and, in fact, the team leads purposefully organized events to be inclusive to everyone on the team. That was the whole point...by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events. And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest of the team aligned behind a significant decision and the excluded team member felt like he wasn't consulted. The team had a 20s-oriented culture and all but one team member participated. You can call it age discrimination, but he didn't fit the culture. And by trying to force him into the culture, with the best of intentions, the company lost the rest of the team to other positions/companies.

I guess what I'm saying is that many employees want their work to have a social component and will seek out employment that gives them that. So companies that don't include a culture fit criteria can risk alienating those employees. One would hope that a large enough company can use cultural fit as a sorting criteria more so than a filtering criteria. But the narrative that prevails here...cultural fit is just a code word for discrimination...feels too naive and lacking nuance. Human social interaction is complex and seeking to view workers as interchangeable cogs based on their capabilities to do work is much too simplistic. Which is not to say that cultural fit isn't an excuse to discriminate, which it often is. I'm only trying to point out that it's a really complex issue that has no universally correct side or answer. It's almost always situational and there's no blanket policy or rule that you can apply to address the issue. Trying to force companies to be culture-fit-blind causes its own set of problems.

And I say all this as a 40s coder, so I'm sure I'd miss out on a number of positions based on cultural fit.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really anything that doesn’t match the team’s (or individual interviewer’s) notion of what a good developer looks like. So it could be how you dress, how you talk, even if you are white and male and not over some age threshold. And I suspect much of that is not conscious, which of course makes it difficult to talk about and address.

I got the job I have now while, for lack of a better term, being "visibly trans", the only person of my race on the team, and also well into my 30s. I don't think it'd be possible for me to look more different than I do from my teammates (especially how the team looked when I started - it's grown and become somewhat more diverse since) That said, I do worry about how my presentation will be perceived elsewhere, it co…

It’s not about looking the same necessarily, it’s about whether you fit the person/team’s image of a good developer, which sometimes can be very narrow. If the team is diverse that is less likely to be the case, of course.

Also, people totally get discriminated against for being trans (though I’m glad to hear you didn’t). That seems indisputable to me, so I’m not sure what your point is unless you’re saying that it doesn’t always happen, which, sure it doesn’t.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#178

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

It's a shame the team didn't take the opportunity to learn from him, it's sounds like he knows far more about work-life balance than everyone else combined.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#179
post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. I've experienced people figuring out my age when looking at my resume, then weirdly warping the questions while accusing me of Googling the answers in response. (Based only on hearing me type. I was scripting a Python script to give the answer.)

I don't know what the situation was, but maybe you should have let them know that you were going to write a python script?

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#180
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still hard to know what this means. For example, all the senior engineers I currently work with are great at telling a story about how they look to hire based on talent, self-awareness, critical thinking, and many soft skills, and that the technical particulars are only incidental guideposts. Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from…

> Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from the interview if the running time complexity would be too high or if they can’t mathematically prove the result would be a uniform draw from the space of permutations of the cards. I'd actually expect a surprisingly large fraction of programmers to be able to do reasonably OK on that particular…

For those who haven't seen it, here is how you can show with a counting and divisibility argument that a common algorithm many come up with to shuffle is not a fair shuffle.

Here's the algorithm, in pseudo code (yes, with 1-based arrays!):

  let a = [1, 2, 3, ...., N]  # the items to shuffle
  for i = 1 to N
    j = random_in(1, N)
    swap(a[i], a[j])
Imagine that random_in() makes a log of all its return values. In this program every time it is called it returns an integer >= 1 and That means that there are N^N distinct possible traces. Each of these traces is equally likely. We can associate with each of the traces a shuffle, namely the shuffle that results from the run of the program that produced that trace.

This gives us a list of N^N shuffles. This list will contain duplicates, because there are only N! distinct shuffles, and N! The shuffle is fair if and only if each possible shuffle occurs the same number of times in the list of N^N shuffles. For it to be even possible for that to happen, we must have N! divides N^N.

But if N > 2, that cannot happen. To show this note that if N! divides N^N, then every divisor of N! must divide N^N. Pick a prime P such that (1) p Can we really always pick such a prime? Yes. If N is divisible by every prime p Note that you cannot save this class of algorithm by doing more passes. Those just change the size of the trace from N^N to N^(kN) for some integer N. Nor can you save it by changing it to pick both indices at random for the swap instead of picking only one at random. That just changes N^N to (N^2)^N = N^(2N). As long as the random number generator is always asked for a number in {1, 2, ..., N} and it is called the same number of times every time the program is run, the trace size is going to be a power of N, and cannot be divide evenly by N!

Now we can see why Fisher-Yates might work. It asks for a random number up to N the first iteration, up to N-1 the second iteration, and so on. That means its trace is N! long. There is no problem dividing N! by N!. Since N!/N! = 1, if we can show that each shuffle is included, that will also show that each is included the same number of times, and hence that Fisher-Yates is fair.

All we have to do now to see that Fisher-Yates is fair is show that each shuffle can be produced by it. Given a desired shuffle, it is easy to construct the trace that results in it, and we are done.

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