Six Months at Riot Games • Hacker News Board

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#171

Post by danShumway » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #149

eksemplar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the way things are though. I’m a manager, and I wouldn’t tolerate any of the painted stories for a second. In fact, none of the people in my network, which includes numerous large Scandinavian tech companies would tolerate anything of the sort. You do see that stuff, of course, but you see it mainly in children aged 10-15, and otherwise only in private, because anyone who keeps it up after that will be un…

Unfortunately, it's often suppressed by those who are offended because they feel speaking up jeopardizes their job or acceptance with coworkers. Look how much is quietly endured in this very anecdote. Cases like this exist, where managers are subsumed into the culture (or passively even actively foster it), but more common is behavior that's increasingly tolerated because nobody wants to speak up because of the cultu…

There's a subset of users out in full force bravely downvoting anyone who sticks up for her or who dares to suggest that sexism might be an institutional, culturally widespread problem. Same reason this article went from the front page to the sixth in three hours.

Don't worry about it.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#172

Post by tinderliker » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

The only mistake I understood Riot did was: recruiting a person who doesn't understand gaming culture. I know many girl gamers who use the same language as Riot employees. It's almost like going to France and getting offended that everyone is speaking French.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#173

Post by Djvacto » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #139

ck425 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women." Enough with the boys will be boys angle. That behavior doesn't have to be the default male behavior. It shouldn't be the default male behavior. Enough is enough, that's not ok anymore. And we men need start calling each other out on it.

Why shouldn't it be the default male group behavior (for some ages and environments) to discuss women? Is it that trying to sleep with women is immoral or that considering their looks is immoral or that discussing it is immoral? I guess the core way I disagree with modern culture is that there's this idea that women are either viewed as objects or as humans. It's kind of obvious that they're both, if you say that wom…

None of the ways in which women were discussed was respectful. That's the difference.

You're talking about hypothetical respectful objectification, which just isn't a thing.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#174

Post by zetimana » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #57

shawn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I assure you it’s uncontrollable. There are millions of games played per day on Dota. How do you propose to fairly evaluate each of them?

You seriously can't think of a single idea for how to ban toxic players at scale? Start with crowd-sourcing via reports, then pass it over to customer service once a critical mass has been achieved. Make sure one person can't easily create a new account after being banned. This really isn't a new problem, tons of companies of all sizes have tackled it with varying success.

Okay something tells me you've never played an online game, like ever?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#175

Post by stormcode » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:46 PM UTC

tinderliker wrote: post #172

The only mistake I understood Riot did was: recruiting a person who doesn't understand gaming culture. I know many girl gamers who use the same language as Riot employees. It's almost like going to France and getting offended that everyone is speaking French.

Just because something is the predominant culture does not make it right or okay.

It's not like going to France and getting offended that everyone is speaking French.

Strip clubs, tit jokes, objectifying others, homophobic slander, and transphobia as part of a company 'culture' is toxic.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#176

Post by tinderliker » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

stormcode wrote: post #175

tinderliker wrote: post #172

The only mistake I understood Riot did was: recruiting a person who doesn't understand gaming culture. I know many girl gamers who use the same language as Riot employees. It's almost like going to France and getting offended that everyone is speaking French.

Just because something is the predominant culture does not make it right or okay. It's not like going to France and getting offended that everyone is speaking French. Strip clubs, tit jokes, objectifying others, homophobic slander, and transphobia as part of a company 'culture' is toxic.

Don't impose your morals on a community you don't belong to. That's called colonialism btw.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#177

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:50 PM UTC

trowawee wrote: post #91

ecshafer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the way things are though, at least no where I've worked. I work in the finance industry as a software developer and if any of that stuff happened, there would be a huge outcry and some serious reprimands and firings. In most of America things are nothing like that. These are immature people that got lucky and rich and still act like frat boys.

Virtually every woman I know has stories like the ones in both this blog post and the original big Kotaku piece. The sheer pervasive depth of Riot's misogynistic culture is less common, but it's a difference in degree, not in kind.

And yet it’s not the case everywhere. Most women have passed through at least one workplace with a misogynistic culture. But there are also workplaces out there where women are treated professionally. I know because I’m a woman and have worked at a few of them. Misogyny isn’t some inevitable way the world has to be. It’s the result of choices and social signaling that treats it as acceptable.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#178

Post by belorn » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

lsmarigo wrote: post #40

Interesting that this one is doing well compared to the longer in-depth kotaku article a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17710188 - fwiw that piece has since been corroborated by a ton of former riot employees on twitter. At the risk of sounding overly cynical, this is all true and everyone knows about it, people feign disgust at these articles but we're all complicit and understanding that this is…

Nothing will change because no one addressing or discussing the underlying causes for a culture that is drenched in gender roles and a corresponding social status ladder. All focus is being spent on either attacking "them" in as much generalized way as possible or defending "us" and the product of that fight is almost always status quo and further polarization.

Imagine if we instead used classical scientific method of measuring and correlating. What is the correlating attributes of an employee and advancement in a major game studio. What is the correlating attributes of social rank within the local culture and do those positive or negative correlate with with advancement and wages. Does fear of loosing social rank correlate to increased negative behavior? Are the multiple competitions over social rank and does there exist inter-sex competition in connection to competition where both men and women compete on the same ladder?

But I digress. The only change this kind of articles has can be seen in comments here and the linked one. More polarization, more generalization, and in a few days replaced with the next article to repeat over.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#179

Post by danShumway » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #147

trowawee wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like...there's some sort of gendered power imbalance in society? That might make men comfortable disregarding this? But that might not afford women the same privilege?

There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed. The real wage gap when you control for time worked and job choice is tiny. Ask yourself this - would you consider your child more lucky to be an ugly, short boy or a pretty girl? Or a boy and you have 20k a year to bring him up vs a girl and you have 50? Walking around furious as a good looking…

> "A senior staff member proceeded to repeatedly call me sexist for not being willing to room with a man I’d never met before. At first, I thought he was kidding, but he continued to make arguments to his point. I explained why I would be more comfortable sharing a room with another woman, and told him I wasn’t enjoying the conversation and would leave if I was continued to be called sexist. The conversation continued, with him eventually saying that my unwillingness to room with a man was the same as not hiring a woman due to her gender."

You're not arguing in good faith right now. The above scenario isn't a joke - it's harassment. No matter who it was done to; any gender in any context, it would be harassment.

You're phrasing this like it was a few offhand comments; as a man, if any of the stuff in this article had happened to me, regardless of whether it had been a male or female doing it, I would have been appalled. I would be having the exact same reaction.

To talk about experiences like this as if they just boil down to political correctness requires a kind of willful ignorance.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#180

Post by beart » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

marsrover wrote: post #15

> While on a team outing, the same senior staff member messaged a new employee’s girlfriend on Facebook asking if she was “DTF” I would probably do something that would get me fired if this happened to me.

My question is, why did a senior staff member have access to a new employee's girlfriend anyway? I'm guessing the new employee friended the senior staff member on Facebook. This just seems like so many cross boundaries.