The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.” • Hacker News Board

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#171

Post by s73v3r_ » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #18

larkeith wrote: post #7

Personally, I cannot fathom finding it preferable, or even acceptable, for Amazon to attempt to displace my local library; Much like bookstores, there's an essential soul to them any corporate invader like Amazon lacks utterly. I have fond memories of summers spent trawling the stacks, afternoons at a table with friends working on homework, DnD sessions in the private meeting rooms, and browsing old stock auctions fo…

Expenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs mor…

Wrong. Spending on libraries is not what is causing us to not be able to afford lunch for needy children.

"Could Amazon meet those needs more cheaply? If so, that is a win."

Only if those who currently use the library are able to use Amazon with the same regularity. Is Amazon providing children's summer reading programs? Is Amazon providing an air conditioned space during the summer heat waves and a heated space during winter cold snaps? Is Amazon actually helping you do research?

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#172

Post by maym86 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #91

maym86 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of worrying about whether school lunches or libraries should be prioritized let's focus on getting Amazon to pay its fair share in taxes so we can have both. In Alameda county we recently had a vote to raise taxes to fund libraries and it passed overwhelmingly - 76% voted yes. The people here think they're valuable.

Getting "Amazon to pay its fair share in taxes" is a pipe dream. The United States is, by design, a race-to-the-bottom internal free market. Any given county has to balance tax rates with attracting/keeping businesses in the county. So the tax money coming in is what it is. Especially if you're one of the 99.9% of counties outside the Silicon Valley halo. The policy question is how to spend that tax money, and what m…

The romantic notion of a functioning free market where the largest corporations aren't subsidized by the tax payer and lobbying the government for tax breaks? The romantic notion that corporations can be used to run social services more effectively?

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#173

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

JTbane wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny to imagine publishers making the case against them- "You're gonna just let people borrow books for free!? How will I turn a profit?" It's also kind of sad that this logic is so prevalent with regards to software, films, music, etc.

Well, with regards to software, films, music, etc, lots of people work on those. Those people need to feed their families.

Are you arguing that authors/editors/etc don't need to feed their families?

Our economic system is fundamentally broken, in that we need to give creators more financial support. Throwing our books into our current Intellectual Property mess isn't going to fix that, just like it hasn't really fixed that for other media for the past 20 years.

We need to bring non-library media closer towards the library model, rather than the reverse.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#174

Post by s73v3r_ » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #122

ikeyany wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a Prime example of why tech workers are despised outside of our bubble.

The bubble of tech workers is only equaled by the bubble of anti-tech activists. Most people don't have a stronger opinion about what you do than you do about whatever random thing they do.

Most people don't have a strong opinion about writing software. They do have strong opinions about how tech companies think they can bypass the law and "disrupt" things.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#175

Post by Kalium » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

Djvacto wrote: post #102

rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs mor…

According to politifact[1], education spending accounts for just 3% of all government spending (mandatory and discretionary). Using libraries as the target for cuts so that we can feed the school-children, and citing logic, is ignoring a lot of other much more 'logical' choices we can make first. Military spending (16%), or Health spending, which is a whopping 28% because of our horse-by-committee system here in the…

It's worth bearing in mind that as education is primarily a state responsibility, the vast majority of education spending is at state and local levels. Libraries also tend to be budgeted for mainly below the federal level and thus mostly don't show up in the federal budget. The Politifact article you have so wisely provided speaks solely and exclusively to the federal budget.

You're absolutely correct that education spending at the federal level is ridiculously low! There just might be an important qualifier to that.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#176

Post by wilsonnb2 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #53

BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

Free so long as you can afford the net and are happy to abandon your privacy then call it "free". If you're one of the 8% in the US without a bank, or 11% without internet, what now? Libraries also gave net access for those without. They probably wouldn't be invented as they are, but given those groups without access I would want them to be.

If banking and internet services are so vital that we justify the existence of libraries because they provide access to them, then the Government should be responsible for providing to it's citizens anyways.

It's possible that libraries are the best way to do that but it's also possible that there are other, better ways.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#177

Post by rainbowmverse » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

A whole lot of people in here are discovering their tax dollars collectively fund a wonderland of knowledge, tools, and access they had no idea about. It's great.

Go to your local library today.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#178

Post by prolikewh0a » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

romaniv wrote: post #62

rb808 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try going to one This is probably the best hint that they might not be so useful. The truth is most people never go to libraries.

Some users of this website might never go to libraries, but every time I go to our local library there are tons of people there.

Every Seattle Public Library branch I go to is packed full every single day they're open, especially people using their computers.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#179

Post by davegauer » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #81

The interesting thing on this thread is that while there is a general agreement libraries are high ROI government institutions and worth preserving, I don’t think anyone has defended the libraries role as a repository of books. I personally I am glad that these neighborhood book warehouses exist, we personally take our kids to checkout books about monthly. But as an adult? Almost all my check outs are via inter libra…

Your experience mirrors mine exactly: we would go broke if we had to buy all of the picture books we checked out for our kids (sometimes on the order of 20/week). And for myself, the inter-library loan has been incredibly useful (especially for recent popular science titles).

I also appreciate being able to browse the small selection of fiction/non-fiction at our local branch. As with the bookstore, I often pick up things I wouldn't dream of searching for online and would therefore never have found.

I likewise wish my library system had more of a "long tail" stored somewhere.[1] Older books (no matter how popular and well-known they were at one time) are often simply not available.

I had practically written off libraries when I was in my 20s:

* The hours didn't mesh well with my work schedule

* I could afford to buy whatever I was interested in

* They never had the up-to-date programming books I wanted/needed

That has changed completely now that I'm a parent. And yes, I do think libraries need books. Communities need books. This stuff needs to be available, even if just in principle.

I was skeptical but surprised to find that my local library system has one copy each of:

* Introduction to Algorithms

* The Art of Computer Programming (vol 1)

* The Pragmatic Programmer

But the list of computer science classics they don't have is far larger. What they do have are a ton of of titles like _Teach Yourself Visual Basic.NET in 21 Days_ (real) and _Excel 14.2.32.rev13 for Boneheads_ (made up). No doubt it reflects what patrons are requesting...but I would personally wish for a collection that leans a little more heavily on the perennial classics.

[1] http://www.dlib.org/dlib/april06/dempsey/04dempsey.html

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#180

Post by s73v3r_ » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

jerkstate wrote: post #6

When I was a young child, the library was a place for me to go to sit on a beanbag and read childrens books for hours while my mom studied for her masters degree. Now 2/3 of library patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction, and some parents may not wish to leave their children unattended in such an environment. I don't think Amazon has the answers but I see a natural tension between welcoming vagrants and ma…

"Now 2/3 of library patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction,"

Citation needed.