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With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

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Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I wouldn't call it people with short attention spans though. People have to arrive at their own understanding independently in order to be able to know that understanding is their own. But that's also a problem, because once you get there, how do you check it's the right understanding? Check with other people, check with code. And then, it loops - argue with people to prove distinction - code disti…

People have to arrive at their own understanding independently in order to be able to know that understanding is their own. Far too many managers in the 90's and early 2000's simply thought they needed to hire super-memorizers who just knew everything, like they're characters out of a movie. I'm not so sure this has changed in 2018. Work smarter, not harder.

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Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#172

Do grades even matter anymore? Unless you're applying to a gov't job, you're connections, friends, professors that like you, github accounts, art or MBA portfolio are the tools that move you "up" in the world. And in that order. Online education dilutes GPA too. As well as more tech skill degrees (devops certs), aka those were called trade/vocational schools in my day. I've never seen a GPA on an intern application/r…

It matters as a filter.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#173
“A 4.0 does signal something significant, that that student is good,” said Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University professor who has studied grade inflation for years. “ A 3.7, however, doesn’t. That’s just a run-of-the-mill student at any of these schools.”

I disagree with this statement, at Carnegie Melllon I noticed that a lot of 4.0's were engineered. Students avoid taking hard classes, avoid difficult requirement classes by taking at an easier university, avoid challenging themselves outside of their major.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#174
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is. Grade inflation is a well known, documented phenomena. Unfortunately I have no time to link the papers on this subject, but if you search, they are there.

Have school grades ever deflated? Or undergone some sort of correction? No citation needed, anecdotes are fine.

Historically, I have no idea. Anecdotally, having recently graduated from a liberal arts school(BA CS & Math) I can say the trend seemed to differ wildly depending on the instructor and course. The CS and Stats professors had radically different expectations of what an, "A" performance in their classes was verses general professors. The tears of those students who had only ever gotten A's when they got a B- in Algorithms or Stat465... So much angst and hate over what should reflect an adequate grasp of the material. That said I feel like it's the responsibility of the institution to instill consistent criteria for evaluating performance. Having applied and been accepted to graduate school, I was nearly rejected for having earned C's in two of the hardest courses offered by the school. Turns out the same (tough) professors didn't care about that fact, admitting those of higher GPA's from easier majors no-questions-asked, subjecting me to the microscope. So their distress was qualified in the end. I ended up saying, "f this noise" and took a great job where I get paid to write HN comments on the toilet, btw. Hey, you asked for anecdotes.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grade inflation refers to the phenomena of getting an "A" despite having what used to be a "B" or "C" level of knowledge. So, it's possible there's an incidental correlation but there's no causation if the phenomena is real. If you've seen how the average kid uses the internet, it's a rather laughable suggestion... there is little overlap between social media entertainment sites and the web of knowledge. The biggest…

This is so ignorant to the advancements in pedagogy over the past several decades as to be insulting. Part of, if maybe not the biggest or only factor, the increase in grades is we are just hugely better at teaching than we were 30 or 40 years ago. Teaching for mastery, the idea of reversing the role of homework vs tests (in terms of relative difficulty and exposure to new information) to better facilitate self learn…

I think you're assuming those advances in theory are universally available in practice.

They are not. My experience as a public school student was far worse than when my parents went to school - double or worse class sizes, no teaching assistants, and occasionally the same textbooks my parents used. "Experienced" teachers were the worst - it often seemed like the only thing they changed over the years was to stop corporal punishment.

My parents required unreasonable numbers of As, so I regularly got undeserved grades just by acting like I'd make a big deal about it... teachers were too overwhelmed to pay attention even if they cared. Some of my peers had helicopter parents that called in arguing their kid deserved an A simply for studying all night, even though that "sudying" was often was just online RPGs.

The trend followed in college for non-major classes. Professors simply didn't care unless a student would be advancing to another class in their department - then they cared enough to fail students, but the grade curve was still logistic. Not the expected "C = passing knowledge".

Even then, I still never saw pedagogical advances outside of brand new assistant professors in liberal arts classes.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#176
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a significant tendency on HN to unduly discount good grades. I think this is a mistaken tendency due to univariate, linear thinking. Grades are not everything, but they are not nothing. The fact is, determining a good hire requires multivariate, nonlinear thinking. Good grades can be a proxy for metaskills like discipline, cognitive ability, etc. They don't always measure these things perfectly, but the corre…

> In the engineering/academic world, grades do matter and are highly predictive of ability. People with poorer grades often struggle a lot. This is a purely empirical question to which you seem to have simply assumed an answer. While there are difficulties to studying this question empirically there have been solid studies to this effect. I've seen a few solid survey papers on personnel selection methods; a solid exa…

> This observation does not lend much credence to the idea that grades are "highly predictive of ability" or that people with low grades "often struggle a lot".

The paper does not seem to control for differences between colleges. It's unsurprising that the predictive value of, say, 3.8 GPA would massively differ between individual schools.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#177
Not all universities! Simon Fraser University uses a 4.33 point scale (A = 4.00, A+ = 4.33) and its average GPA in 2017 (2.83) is only slightly above the average GPA in 1992 (2.80). Over that 25 year period, the university-wide average grade awarded has varied between a low of 2.77 and a high of 2.85.

Students complain. They complain a lot. We know that we're losing pre-med students to UBC -- which awards much higher grades on average -- because when we ask them why they decided to not accept SFU's admission offer, they reply "I'm planning on becoming a doctor and UBC will give me the higher grades I need". This also happens to a lesser extent with pre-law students. Over the past few years we've started displaying course average grades on transcripts and sending letters to graduate schools saying "so, there's something you should know about SFU's grades...".

I don't know how long SFU will be able to hold the line against grade inflation, but we're trying. It's not fair to students who worked hard to get a GPA of 3.7 (currently around 2% of students manage this) if next year's students can get that just by showing up.

In the mean time, if you see a student with a 4.00 GPA from Simon Fraser University... believe it.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, I pulled some statistics from the class graduating from SFU at the end of the 2017/18 year:

   First Class Honours with Distinction (Honours program, 4.00+ GPA) 6
   Honours with Distinction (Honours program, 3.50+ GPA)            61
   Honours                                                          61
   First Class with Distinction (Major program, 4.00+ GPA)          24
   With Distinction (Major program, 3.50+ GPA)                     265
   Bachelors                                                      1769
Across the university, 1.37% of students graduate with a 4.00+ GPA and 16.29% graduate with a 3.50+ GPA.

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#178

My grandfather was CEO of an NYSE listed company and he preferred to hire people out of college whom had lower GPAs around 3.0 then perfect students because he thought these folks made for better team members and well rounded employees. Simply put he wanted to hire people who perused side passions and had a social life. Personally after having been in entrepreneurial circles for years it seems the most financially su…

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Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#179

I spent so much time and energy stressing over my very mediocre GPA. I had undiagnosed adhd at the time and struggled immensely with turning things in on time. I usually did above average on tests, but when there are only a few homework assignments in a semester and no-late work policy, one zero really hurts. I was able to work it back up from a 2.2 in sophomore year to a 3.0 by graduation, but that was only because…

This is encouraging to read. Right now I'm at what feels like the nadir of a similar situation, and am trying to figure out the right steps forward. I attended Caltech for CS, struggled with chronic late submissions, cratering self worth and other issues over about three years, took several short leaves ending with a medical leave and was diagnosed with ADHD. Got on medication, got a development job for about a year…

Hey, I'm a fellow non-college-grad with a ~1.7 GPA who's worked at 2 of FANG and got an offer from a third.

The best actionable advice I can give you is: put Caltech on your resume with your years of attendance, leave off your GPA entirely, and indicate in text under that that it's incomplete. You'll need a compelling narrative around why it's incomplete (which is admittedly difficult and usually circumstance-specific) or why it doesn't matter too much given that you've done X. X is something impressive, uncommon, and shows intelligence and initiative. As an example, my Xs were getting press in lifehacker for a side project and doing well in a FANG hackathon while in school.

For jobs, I think a common myth is that your credentials/resume is hugely important. From what I've seen, this is both true and false. The _specifics_ of your resume don't really matter 99% of the time, only that they're interesting. Also, keep in mind most resumes are screened by a real, live human - being authentic and passionate can help out as a break from the BS a recruiter sees day-to-day (but do think about what a recruiter would be looking for at a glance). After you clear the resume filter, you're on a similar playing field vs. every other candidate. And then it's up to you and your ability to pass interviews - that's a whole other topic which I won't cover here =P

If it helps, feel free to reach out through linkedin or email in my profile. Stay focused and keep your chin up!

Re: With more students boasting flashy GPAs, academic honors lose their luster

#180
The question seems to be, in which cases could a high GPA be a negative signal?

The answer depends on the qualities the employer is optimizing for in its employees. It’s easy to imagine how a high GPA could be a positive signal or a low GPA could be a negative signal. However, it’s also possible to imagine some circumstances where a high GPA may be a negative signal and a low GPA a high signal.

For example, perhaps a high GPA at a hard school implies a tendency for isolation, a preference for conformity over risk, and quality of work that depends solely on the specificity of instructions given. Depending on the stage of the company hiring, and/or the role it’s hiring for, these traits may be undesirable and therefore useful as a negative hiring signal.

That said, the question of GPA as a signal is too focused in scope. Any such consideration of a signal metric like GPA should be balanced with its inverse: the likelihood of a low metric (e.g., GPA) being a negative signal.

A holistic approach would include creating a matrix of (x) traits the company wants to select or filter, and (y) input signals like GPA. That is, a mapping of signals to traits.

For each signal and trait the company should strive to estimate the probability function of the following cases:

- High metric (GPA) is a negative signal for trait

- High metric (GPA) is a positive signal for trait

- Low metric (GPA) is a positive signal for trait

- Low metric (GPA) is a negative signal for trait

The company should consider the importance of the trait(s) it is selecting for, and the relative risks (downsides) of misinterpreting any signal used as an input for selecting those traits. Only then does it have the information necessary to create a useful hiring strategy and rubric for candidates.

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