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New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

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Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#171

Post by dalbasal »

sveme wrote: post #43
bryanlarsen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I disagree." In other words you think that subsidies and senseless bureaucratic obstacles are better than tariffs? The OP is not saying that tariffs are a good thing, he's saying that tariffs are so obviously bad & stupid that they're easier to get rid of and negotiate away. Subsidies and senseless bureaucratic obstacles are just as damaging as tariffs but they are harder to get rid of.

Regulatory requirements on product safety and environmental standards are not senseless bureaucratic obstacles.

(OP) No, they're not senseless but they are barriers. They can be senseless and they can be designed to be obstacles, a disingenuous way of having obstacles without admitting it. The truth is in the specifics.

One advantage of tariffs is that they let you have product safety and environmental standards that were designed for consumer & environmwntal safety instead of an ulterior motives. The most obvious example is the entirely estranged European & American dairy regulations which started as a way of protecting consumers but are now a way of protecting industries.

My argument is that if you could just admit that an industry is being protected, and have tariffs then we could enjoy eachothers' cheeses (at a higher price). We'd also raise tax revenue and probably have better consumer safety regulations, since they wouldn't have to (disingenuously) make the case that the way cheese is made in Scotland or prosciutto is made in Italy is fundamentally unsafe.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#172

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

psergeant wrote: post #166
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #165

There seems to be a lot of groupthink on HN. Pretty much every comment in this thread that views tariffs remotely positively is being downvoted. I view them slightly negatively, but protectionism (not necessarily tariffs) does help struggling or new industries develop if coupled with good export policies (see China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for examples), so the idea that tariffs have no arguments for them seem…

Another word for “groupthink” is “consensus”

Consensus implies reasoned thought. Groupthink is mob rule.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#173

Post by imtringued »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #75
hugh4life wrote: post #12

I'm neutral on the tariffs, I am(or was) actually excited about China getting into the memory market to help keep the other memory makers honest... but it's important to have an alternative source of those components in case there would be trouble between the US and China. There needs to be a way to nudge businesses to have a source of components out of China.

Perhaps the US dependence on China for some products neutralises the chance of trouble between the US and China.

Considering that China immediately retaliates against the US by putting a tariff on their own food supply I doubt they care about US dependence at all. After all they are the ones with the big trade surplus that refuse to play fair and they are using the surplus on strategic investments on critical infrastructure to increase US dependence on China.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#174

Post by bumblebritches5 »

mchannon wrote: post #153
afpx wrote: post #146

Anyone able and willing (and brave enough) to explain like I’m five why Trump’s decisions could possibly be rational and helpful as opposed to just reactionary and impulsive, as they appear to be?

I don't think it's controversial to say the decisions are rational and helpful, as long as you remember to include "to certain entities". Winners: •Manufacturers of Steel, Aluminum, Electronic Components in US. •Consumers of goods under retaliatory tariffs (pork chops are now going to cost Americans a little less because the Chinese aren't going to import as many). Losers: •Consumers of Steel, etc., including manufac…

> It's widely agreed that more Americans will lose their jobs from these policies than will be hired

Maybe by shills and complete idiots.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#175

Post by alkonaut »

Apart from some steep farm/dairy tariffs, what are the huge tariffs that other countries impose on US exports?

I thought the gist of this whole debate was that the US administration somehow thought VATs applied abroad somehow made US products less competitive and therefore was in fact a tariff? I do realize this sounds too dumb even for the current administration so I may be wrong.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#176

Post by linuxps2 »

anon23423532 wrote: post #163
digitalzombie wrote: post #25

I really hate the new tariff. There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. The economy is recovering and I believe it may now be heading toward a recession. Here's the quick data on job created in raw number without the quality of the job to show that it is recovering since the 2008 recession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2…

They tariffed our "allies" because our "allies" allow China to setup shell corporations in their countries so China can abuse trade agreements to get around direct tariffs. In return they make billions for being willing to stab the US in the back. We need to do this because China steals 300 billion dollars in IP from American corporations every year, in addition to illegally subsidizing their companies to steal globa…

China also gives us goods far below what we could produce them for which lowers our cost of living. Complaining about China stealing $300b (I'll use your number because it doesn't really matter) in IP is like complaining about high school kids stealing Adobe CC - it's a theoretical loss, they weren't going to be a customer regardless. Tariffs don't even do anything to prevent IP theft

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#177

Post by Balero »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #165

There seems to be a lot of groupthink on HN. Pretty much every comment in this thread that views tariffs remotely positively is being downvoted. I view them slightly negatively, but protectionism (not necessarily tariffs) does help struggling or new industries develop if coupled with good export policies (see China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for examples), so the idea that tariffs have no arguments for them seem…

I agree with you that tariffs can be good for nascent industries. If these were just tariffs on things like computer chips, solar panels etc then I think there would be a valid argument.

Dairy, Steel and Aluminium are not new industries, tariffs are not to help these grow and become long term viable.

(disclaimer, not from USA)

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#178

Post by psergeant »

hippich wrote: post #154

After reading a bit about the history of tax in the USA, I was surprised to learn that in the very beginning federal government was mostly funded by tariffs. So.. Extra tariffs will bring extra tax revenue. Will federal government cut income/corporate taxes to adjust for it? Or perhaps any paid tariff can be written off of tax bill?

> So.. Extra tariffs will bring extra tax revenue

In the short term. In the long term, that’s far from clear. The world economy is rather different now than it was when America was a fledgling economy being exploited by the Brits

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#179

Post by bryanlarsen »

Brockenstein wrote: post #158
bryanlarsen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I added the adjective "senseless", implying that there are bureaucratic obstacles that aren't senseless.

Depending on who you're talking to "senseless" isn't as objective a term as you seem to imagine.

Of course it's not objective, it's highly subjective. c.f. "ugly cars". Ugly is subjective, but it doesn't mean "all cars are ugly", it's referring to the subset of cars that are ugly.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#180

Post by NegativeLatency »

maxerickson wrote: post #30
dalbasal wrote: post #19

Out of all possible trade barriers, I think tariffs are generally the better option. The alternative is subsidies, quotas or "unofficial" barriers like product safety rules or other burry-you-in-bureaucracy setups. Tariffs bring in taxes (as opposed to costing the public) They're easier to understand. This one makes Chinese microwaves x% more expensive. It's clearer who is paying for it (consumers) and who benefits,…

People buying products subject to tariffs (or products made with materials subject to tariffs) pay the majority of the tariff. So they do cost the public. In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition.

See also: The chicken tax (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax) and how there are no cheap light trucks in the US
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