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Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

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Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#171

Post by ekianjo »

bryant wrote: post #48
ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The application process becomes a strict meritocracy when all of these points (race/name/need) are blocked, which works in a perfect world but does not work when you consider that socioeconomic disparities tend to impact minority races the most. Access to education has been one of the best thing to happen to minorities, and Asians are a good example of that. Most came from poor immigrant families and in the space o…

> Access to education has been one of the best thing to happen to minorities, and Asians are a good example of that. Most came from poor immigrant families and in the space of 2 generations they made it to top universities. So what exactly were we doing wrong? Seems to me the system is clearly working as a social escalator. (circa 1998) https://www.brookings.edu/articles/unequal-opportunity-race-... (Circa 2015) http…

> with imposed inadequacies in family structure.

If I remember correctly the US government kind of encourages single parenthood through several incentive schemes instead of promoting families, and this has made ravages in black communities since it was implemented. Time to repeal bad policies?

Thomas Sowell on this very topic: https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/07/slavery-didnt-cause-t...

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#172

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

pshre wrote: post #106
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologise, but that is my genuine question, and my genuine thoughts. The way I wrote that is because on issues like this, people get quite charged one way or another, so I wanted to avoid anything personal and just hear the specifics. I'm definitely putting myself into the deep end on this stuff, so I want to hear more on the arguments from both sides - and also the specifics on this case because a lot of it slides…

Do you only think it is a problem for admission metrics? What about other clearly obvious racial biases. Is it a problem that the NBA lacks Asian players?

>Do you only think it is a problem for admission metrics?

No, just one way that arguably is a place to do it. I don't believe there is a silver bullet.

>What about other clearly obvious racial biases. Is it a problem that the NBA lacks Asian players?

There are some parallels to think about here, but on the whole no, and I think the main reason there is because we view Physical pursuits differently than mental ones.

We know that different races have generally different physical attributes, as well as a culture surrounding a specific sport, however I think as a society we view work as a mostly purely mental pursuit (that is arguable too of course), and we do not view it to have a restriction based on race as no particular race is smarter than another. NBA has a base requirement of a certain physical element, which is hard to overcome with the mental side, and if your particular race is known to be taller as a whole than you'll get more people being good at it.

I don't think it is as simple as that (culture and race intertwine a fair bit here...) but the low and the short of it I think is that. Culture plays a part in grass roots numbers of people picking up the sport and going with it of course. And there is argument there about whether it should be promoted more to other cultures/races specifically.

I don't have an answer though, I don't know much about NBA.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#173

Post by mwnivek »

julianss wrote: post #116

I'm a Chinese American and I have experienced this type of behavior during the college admissions process, and during the hiring process with larger companies. During the college applications process, I noticed I was receiving vastly different responses than my girlfriend (wife now) who was African American. Perhaps you could chalk it up recommendations or personal projects. But my girlfriend and I were both A studen…

> Perhaps you could chalk it up recommendations or personal projects. But my girlfriend and I were both A students that made the varsity swimming team.

I don't have data, but I would assume that many Ivy League applicants are straight A students with a varsity sport, so recommendations and personal projects (and luck) are actually very important for admission to very selective colleges.

You also noted a difference in financial aid, but note that Harvard, Yale and Columbia all state that their financial aid is based only on need, not on merit.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#174

Post by ekianjo »

skookumchuck wrote: post #54
ekianjo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial It did always use to be like that. In the 70s and 80s there was a focus back on individuals regardless of their race, gender or origin. This trend to put quotas goes with the wave of political correctness that started pretty much in the early 90s.

Affirmative Action started much earlier than that.

At the government level, certainly - but in the realm of private enterprise this is way more recent.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#175

Post by analyst74 »

rayiner wrote: post #53
gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

What about Asians? I mean the immigration system picks cream of the crop into America, who drive up the average/median income of Asian Americans. So now some penalty has to be applied to make sure this group is held in place?

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#176

Post by KKKKkkkk1 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #22
gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

> By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society That's not really accurate. If you look at the Coleman report, the main study that was done in the run up to school desegregation and forced busing, it showed a bunch of negative impacts to changing the racial balance of institutions too quickly. That research was largely ignored, which in pa…

Gays always served in the US military. The introduction of don't ask don't tell had nothing to do with integrating them into the military, and everything with keeping them in the closet.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#177

Post by Latteland »

userbinator wrote: post #78
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. Must we? There's another comment here about no one seeming too bothered that the NBA doesn't contain very many Asians. Is it already too racist to believe that there are certainly trends in race, and that everyone is different and should be considered on their individual merits alon…

Yes, assuming intellectual trends based on race is a horrible idea. I can't accept that it does anything but lead to justification for racism. to be in the nba, you have to be really tall. you might benefit from there being less opportunities than athletics for your peers, so you'll try harder. seeing others that a similar succeeding might motivate you more. these could be things that help asians see they can succeed, but at the same time shows blacks that the nba is a more likely opportunity than traditional college (whether its true or not).

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#178

Post by Latteland »

echaozh wrote: post #163
siosonel wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must. Asians have not been systematically denied entry to the NBA for hundreds of years. I do not deny that there are ethnic differences or cultural priorities. But if a group of people has been systematically told for a very long time that they cannot achieve anything beyond being a slave, then that oppressed group would probably not bother to engage in technical or scientific pursuits, nor would they have time t…

The Asians are now systematically denied entry to the Academy and you are supporting it now.

No one from my high school in a southern capital city went to the ivy league as far as I know. I was a top student there, ended up getting my phd in cs from a top 20 research university, but not the ivy league. I have been on the west cost for 25 years working in top tech companies as a dev and leader (faangs etc) and I have never met a single person from my undergrad school - I have met people from my grad school. Should I have had a chance to go to an ivy league school or mit etc? Perhaps, I did apply but was rejected. I felt like because I was a white kid it didn't help me out there. Today I have so many people from mit, harvard, cmu etc working for me.

But I did just fine, there was plenty of opportunity to succeed in other ways. But would the schools have benefited with a single person from my state or city, instead of more people from a big city prep school on the west coast? My family was much poorer than the typical white rich legacy at an ivy league. But i was white. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference and I'm fortunate, I doubt it hurt me.

I don't feel like I had a bad experience, but I'm just throwing this out there for the people complaining about prejudice because they are asian. My current company is full of successful, well educated asians, yet there were almost no black devs at google. Same for women. It was partly because there weren't any to interview or hire.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#180

Post by mdimec4 »

userbinator wrote: post #78
rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. Must we? There's another comment here about no one seeming too bothered that the NBA doesn't contain very many Asians. Is it already too racist to believe that there are certainly trends in race, and that everyone is different and should be considered on their individual merits alon…

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