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Anthony Bourdain has died

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Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#171

Post by WhompingWindows »

Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

I don't believe you are the master of your own existence. Did you decide what to eat this morning, or rather is it the product of your habits and cultural forces and family choices and genetically based preferences? IMO free will is an illusion, and this is part of the reason why stigmatizing mental illness is so pernicious. We say "get over it, everyone gets depressed" or we say "omg, I'm so OCD lol". Not really, though, these are complex neurobiological disorders that scientists don't understand well and doctors don't have great treatments for. If you're severely depressed or schizophrenic, your capacity to lead a normal life is vastly reduced, you can't even go through the daily rituals/motions that everyone else does. You become separate from society, and peoples' saying that you're rich, you're doing well, get over it: that makes it all feel worse. Add on top of that potential drug use, increasing suicide rates in society (we know they are contagious, it spreads like a virus), and of course the more advanced age of these recent celebrity suicides.

So, are severely mentally ill people truly capable of living normal lives? Are they capable of making clear, level-headed decisions? I highly doubt that they were truly masters of their own existence if they decided they'd rather stop existing than suffer more illness.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#172

Post by oldsklgdfth »

ebiester wrote: post #162
oldsklgdfth wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna stray away from talking about mental illness, cause I'm not a doctor and there are a lot of grey parts. Suicide is about giving up. There can be a number of reasons for throwing the towel in. For seemingly normal people, I tend to think it's because they feel like they have failed in a way that is irredeamable. Like the samurai guys, that have disgraced themselves and there is no way to go on without their…

There are different reasons people attempt or commit suicide. That said, do we blame someone who succumbs to cancer when they die? That somehow they failed at trying harder? For some, depression is an episode or collection of episodes in life. For others, it's a chronic condition. He lived decades (from other accounts) with a chronic condition and succumbed to it. Sometimes, toxic environments contribute and I don't…

I think that analogy brings up a good point. Does someone consciously choose to succumb to dying of cancer? And this probably evolves into a discussion about choices and free will.

I guess what I'm trying that isn't isolated to depression and mental illness. If you have asthma you use an inhaler, but you should probably not smoke.

If you have clinical depression there are medical ways to address that, but you probably should not put yourself in situations that will make that worse.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#173

Post by alexhutcheson »

Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

This blog post from a psychiatrist is a good read for people interested in this debate: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-tre...

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#174

Post by ridgeguy »

protonimitate wrote: post #84
Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

I see what you're getting at, but I think the reason that suicide is linked with mental illness is because it goes against our very nature as living beings. If I recall correctly, a majority of people who have 'failed' suicide (for lack of a better term) have stated that they immediately regretted attempting once it hits the point of no return. This is just an assumption, but I think the will to live greatly outweigh…

No expert here, but....

I think the impulse to suicide can arise in people of sound mind who are (or who feel) trapped by their circumstances and see no way out.

Job loss in late middle age combined with financial load (mortgage, kids in college, increasing medical costs) added to declining health and energy with which to meet life's challenges and maybe add in loss of spouse through divorce or illness - I can see how events could leave someone of sound mind feeling locked into a chronic path of decreasing rewards and agency, coupled with increasing stress and loss.

It's not clear to me that suicide is an irrational choice in such circumstances. It's certainly not the only choice, and it's terribly painful for those left behind, but I think it can be rationally chosen by someone who is not otherwise mentally ill.. No idea what proportion of suicides might be in that category.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#175

Post by chillingeffect »

jdietrich wrote: post #160
Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

> why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? There is a very strong relationship between suicide and mental illness. If someone decides to end their own life, it is overwhelmingly likely that they are suffering from some form of mental illness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12701661 >Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Most people who survive a suicide attemp…

> strong relationship between suicide and mental illness

You're not wrong, but do note that the first paper you cited was from 2003. The CDC results published recently [1] indicate a strong rise in suicide since 1999. And more than half of the people didn't have a known mental health condition. It looks like things are changing.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/suicide/index.html

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#176

Post by fiblye »

Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

I didn't say that it's only a result of mental illness, but lifelong depression is definitely a big factor.

Few living things who are physically healthy and with no history of suicide ideation just decide to die just because. Generally there's some underlying cause, whether it be a longterm plan to do so or some sudden stressor.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#177

Post by jetti »

overcast wrote: post #142
spooneybarger wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sucide rate in the United States has increased over the last 20 years according to the Centers for Disease Control: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/suicide-rates-are...

What I find interesting is that Nevada actually decreased, a place where you can literally lose it all. All of those Midwest states, where quality of life is generally considered the highest and happiest, have the highest increases.

I would imagine that most people losing it all in Nevada don't actually live there though.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#178

Post by petecox »

Thanks for the memories, Tony.

No Reservations was great TV - travelling to exotic destinations, hanging out with chefs and sampling all kinds of street food good and bad. He made the cooking/travel genre fun.

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#179

Post by njoro »

sbenitoj wrote: post #157

My mother committed suicide 8 years ago, and this is something I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about and trying to understand (in part to ensure I never suffer the same fate). For anyone who has struggled with depression or severe anxiety, if you haven’t read the book The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, I encourage you to read it as soon as possible — it’s one of the best, most approacha…

I remember finding this talk quite insightful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

Re: Anthony Bourdain has died

#180

Post by sandworm101 »

jdietrich wrote: post #160
Ntrails wrote: post #60

>, I can only hope that people as a whole start seeing it as a complex issue and the stigma of mental issues and stress can lessen so that people can get help Possibly inappropriate - but why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Am I not the master of my own existence and do I not have the right to make a decision on it without…

> why do people immediately link suicide and mental illness? There is a very strong relationship between suicide and mental illness. If someone decides to end their own life, it is overwhelmingly likely that they are suffering from some form of mental illness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12701661 >Why do we stand in judgement declaring it wrong to decide ones own fate? Most people who survive a suicide attemp…

>> There is a very strong relationship between suicide and mental illness.

Suicide is a symptom of some types of mental illness. But perfectly sane people can still kill themselves. If one wants to prevent suicide one has to accept that fact. We cannot prevent suicides if we look only to people with some sort of observable mental illness. Normal everyday people, some in the prime of life, can and do occasionally decide to kill themselves.

Aside from extremist views (ie never/always appropriate) our society does generally accept suicide in some circumstances. We give medals to people who knowingly die in order to save others. Our movies are full of characters deliberately killing themselves for the benefit of others. On rare occasions we openly criticize those who do not kill themselves where we expect them so to do (Gary Powers). It is part of our culture. We can debate whether suicide is an appropriate action in various hypothetical circumstances, but that's a rambling debate with no end.

Imho suicide is a private issue. In most circumstances our society should work to prevent it from happening, but I'm not going willing to describe every suicide as the result of criminality or mental illness.

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