Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL • Hacker News Board

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#171

Post by Figs » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

mehrdada wrote: post #147

Figs wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that this is ridiculous. It's time that we boycott Apple for their hostile policies! Stop developing for Apple products. Stop buying Apple products. Tell everyone you know not to buy Apple products. If enough people protest, they will eventually be forced to change.

Boycott Apple... and then what? What's the viable alternative? Android? No, thank you. At least you have some leverage over Apple by the virtue of being the customer. The competitor's business model makes it much harder to influence, which is hostile to the customer and their privacy. If you think Android is really open, think again. Without Google Play Services and Play Store you are basically hosed.

There's a lot of options. Easiest is just don't upgrade -- stick with your old phone as long as you can, and don't buy any more apps. If you need to replace your phone and don't want to use standard Android, you can use an Android fork that doesn't depend on Google. (I've been hearing good things about LineageOS, but haven't tried it personally.) Alternatively, you could try a less popular mobile OS like Tizen. Another alternative would be to use an older style non-smart phone. You could even ditch the phone entirely and go back to the way people lived before the last decade or two if you want.

Just don't give Apple any more money until they change.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#172

Post by oregontechninja » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 11:53 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #151

lewisinc wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at least in the Rust ecosystem there is https://github.com/gfx-rs/gfx which provides backends for Vulcan, Direct X 12, Metal and OpenGL. I'm not sure it's super relevant outside of the Rust ecosystem right now, but it's worth spreading the word around of such solutions.

How is the cross api shader support?

Surprisingly good. My tests have run across properly across 4 os's without much change. I can't verify for Apple though.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#173

Post by sbr464 » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 11:55 PM UTC

Does this affect WebGL?

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#174

Post by SwellJoe » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 11:58 PM UTC

kilon wrote: post #156

Unknoob wrote: post #31

Aren't most of the games on MacOS running on OpenGL? This is going to kill all the older titles that are not maintained anymore. Terrible move just to push Metal down people throats. As if MacOS gaming wasn't dead enough.

Nope most of them use some sort of game Engine, unreal and Unity dominate. MacOS gaming is not only not dead it’s flourishing rapidly. Take a trip to Steam shop. You will find a massive amount of games are made for MacOS and the numbers are growing rapidly since Apple lost interest into OpenGL. But then MacOS has reached a 10% of the desktop market making it much harder to ignore than in the past when it barely reach…

"Nope most of them use some sort of game Engine, unreal and Unity dominate."

But, don't those engines use OpenGL on the backend? They need some sort of interface to the GPU, and AFAIK, OpenGL is it for both Mac OS and Linux.

Edit: Yes, at least Unity does. I can't find an authoritative source on Unreal.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/opengl-core-backend-default-...

Edit2: Found Unreal info...they switched to Metal in 4.14. So, you're OK if you develop games for Mac with Unreal.

I guess it's plausible that Unity will do the same going forward.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#175

Post by dman » Mon, Jun 04, 2018, 11:59 PM UTC

rossy wrote: post #165

amag wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is still an option on Windows, it's not deprecated.

That depends on who you ask. OpenGL is in the deprecated API section on MSDN[1]. Because of the ICD model, Microsoft can't prevent GPU vendors from adding OpenGL features, but they don't bother integrating it with modern Windows APIs. You can't create an OpenGL context on a DirectComposition surface or in a UWP app. It integrates poorly with the compositor. You can't get composition feedback, and most drivers will fl…

Deprecated means very different things when coming from Microsoft and Apple.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#176

Post by Tloewald » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 12:06 AM UTC

Jedi72 wrote: post #164

Tloewald wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If cable tv providers can get away with disintermediating TV viewers from TV stations I don’t see how Apple is any worse, especially since I can still buy third party apps, but I can’t either set up or tune into an indie TV station. Amazon is a far worse problem with respect to books (and without any demonstrable user benefit) so good luck waiting for regulation here. 2. Again, you can use Chrome on a Mac. The App…

"Why are you arresting me for armed robbery, dont you know that guy is a Murderer??"

More like: why are you making harsh language a crime since murder is legal?

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#177

Post by GuB-42 » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 12:08 AM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #28

OpenGL isn't pretty, but it's at least cross-platform. And my impression was that OpenGL support is mostly handled by the GPU manufacturers, so I'm not sure how much Apple gains here by deprecating OpenGL. Requiring developers to use an API locked to a particular platform feels pretty hostile to me. Doesn't matter if that API isn't perfect, or even far from it.

OpenGL is pretty. Much prettier than these Metal and Vulkan abominations.

The difference is that OpenGL is designed to be easy for humans. glBegin(GL_TRIANGLES); glVertex3f(x, y, z)...; glEnd(); you can't beat that. The issue is that it hard for the driver to optimize.

That's where Metal and Vulkan come into play. These are low level APIs, sacrificing user friendliness for a greater control over the hardware. It is designed for 3D engines, not for application developers.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#178

Post by outworlder » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 12:08 AM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #168

outworlder wrote: post #83

This is a problem that is entirely of Apple's own doing. Microsoft could not care less about OpenGL on Windows. However, it works just fine. You know why? As soon as you install your video card drivers, your OpenGL implementation is no longer from Microsoft. It comes from AMD, NVidia or Intel, with all needed optimizations for their hardware. Apple insisted in not allowing this and doing the OpenGL implementation the…

What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? If producing an OpenGL implementation doesn't provide a competitive advantage for selling their products, why…

> What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation?

Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac?

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-...

Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack.

http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-state-of-opengl-on-...

From 2012. Which means it is still accurate, given how out of date drivers are.

There are more references, you can look it up.

> The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into?

They still have GPUs, which can be Intel, AMD or NVidia depending on year and model. Just because they are soldered on, doesn't mean they don't need drivers.

EDIT: Some more research seems to indicate that there are drivers developed by NVidia for the NVidia Quadro GPU line.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#179

Post by Tloewald » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 12:09 AM UTC

lainga wrote: post #157

Tloewald wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If cable tv providers can get away with disintermediating TV viewers from TV stations I don’t see how Apple is any worse, especially since I can still buy third party apps, but I can’t either set up or tune into an indie TV station. Amazon is a far worse problem with respect to books (and without any demonstrable user benefit) so good luck waiting for regulation here. 2. Again, you can use Chrome on a Mac. The App…

There's no need to turn this on the commenter.

To whom or what are you referring? If my suggestion that the commenter’s requirements seem quixotic — guilty as charged.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#180

Post by rarepostinlurkr » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 12:10 AM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #100

endorphone wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but they didn't remove OpenGL, they simply deprecated it (e.g. don't expect any updates to it, new tooling will not be built around it, etc). That shouldn't affect legacy apps.

Yes, and deprecation doesn’t mean a lot on the Mac. Apple often deprecates stuff and still leaves it in. They remove it only when there’s something to be gained. (eg. linking with the system-provided OpenSSL has been deprecated for years, but AFAIK they still ship it.)

Chicken and egg. If they remove it apps stop working, if apps don’t update they can’t remove it.