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Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

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Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#171

Post by mikeash »

fouric wrote: post #159
mikeash wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m one of those “idiots.” Can you explain how it’s any worse than carrying a cell phone?

Android has per-app microphone permissions that you can disable, if you want. At least in theory, Google apps honor these permissions, and on LineageOS, you can verify that this is the case - while with the Alexa, not only is there no way to audit any of the code running on the device, but it's explicitly marketed as being always listening.

The baseband is a black box and has direct access to the microphone.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#172

Post by titzer »

These devices are all driven by machine learning voice recognition. I have no idea how I am supposed to derive trust in the software running on them when even the engineers themselves are arms-distance away from their machine models, and the machine models are tuned to terabytes of input data and are trained with reinforcement learning. I don't want to disparage engineers working on these products, but hell, we don't even know how big software systems really work anymore, and we've got neural networks thrown in the mix. We're all just plugging shit together until it limps these days.

I vote no on telescreens.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#173

Post by mikeash »

tambourine_man wrote: post #169
mikeash wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of phones can be set to listen all the time, and you have no way of knowing if it’s been programmed to listen even if you turn that off.

Lots of phone can be set to not listen all the time. iPhone for instance. Yes, it’s ultimately trust in the device maker, the compiler, the chip manufacturer, etc, and those can and have been verified to some extent. But that’s not the point. A phone can listen or not, where you have no doubt with the cylinder. It’s its raison d'etre.

OK, but you used the word “tapped.” A smart speaker isn’t supposed to be tapping you any more than a phone is. In both cases, they have to be doing something more than they’re supposed to.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#174

Post by mygo »

dustinmoorenet wrote: post #140

I have this idea of a system I would like to have in my house. It contains cameras in every room that are constantly watching where people are and relaying the coordinates to a central server. That server makes decisions on if lights should be on or if A/C should be running in that room. But I would never buy this system. I would have to make it myself. I am hopeful that open source software and hardware can produce…

You don’t need to use cameras for this. A simple speaker and microphone is all you need to make a functioning motion sensor. Just exploiting the doppler effect. And even better, you can do it all outside of the human audible spectrum. And it can work with capturing motion around corners, too, since sound bounces off walls.

I’d recommend something like this in every room, or even IR sensors, over cameras. You don’t want to capture video of your children jerking off.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#175

Post by mikeash »

kec wrote: post #141
mikeash wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pocket computer also has all the same potential threats to privacy. Somehow nobody cares about them, though.

Aside from cell tower location tracking, you’d know because it would absolutely tank the battery life of your pocket computer.

I doubt it. Recording audio is pretty cheap. Lots of smartphones can now do continuous “wake word” listening just like smart speakers while on battery power.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#176

Post by drb91 »

cortesoft wrote: post #71
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The device did not audibly advise that it was preparing to send the recording, something it’s programmed to do. Apparently it's not programmed to do that. Unless this was a hardware glitch or cosmic-ray event.

As developers, we use 'programmed' in that manner all the time, to mean what we were trying to get it to do rather than what it actually does.

Really? I would find that pretty confusing as a developer--a computer famously only does what it is programmed to do.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#177

Post by backtoyoujim »

fokinsean wrote: post #96
michael_j_ward wrote: post #54

I received one of these messages just a week ago. Alexa sent me a message of my friend and his girlfriend having a private conversation. I immediately texted him to ask if he intended to do that and he did not- so weird.

Do you have to link your phone number to Alexa?

i believe that it requires an account with amazon.

i would assume that the profile for even a free amazon account would require a phone number.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#178

Post by ggg9990 »

fouric wrote: post #167
jasonkostempski wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you build it, knowing guest may never feel completely comfortable visiting your house.

They should feel more comfortable than an equivalent system built by a company that is looking to profit off of your data - and additionally, you can give the guest stronger guarantees that when you say that the system is "off", it actually is.

The chance that a random implementer has a security vulnerability is much higher than that Jeff Bezos is listening to me watch TV. A private system is more vulnerable to target attack and an Amazon system is more vulnerable to mass surveillance.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#179

Post by myth_drannon »

dustinmoorenet wrote: post #140

I have this idea of a system I would like to have in my house. It contains cameras in every room that are constantly watching where people are and relaying the coordinates to a central server. That server makes decisions on if lights should be on or if A/C should be running in that room. But I would never buy this system. I would have to make it myself. I am hopeful that open source software and hardware can produce…

Well that's what www.aerial.ai is doing using wi-fi signals

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#180

Post by fouric »

mikeash wrote: post #171
fouric wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has per-app microphone permissions that you can disable, if you want. At least in theory, Google apps honor these permissions, and on LineageOS, you can verify that this is the case - while with the Alexa, not only is there no way to audit any of the code running on the device, but it's explicitly marketed as being always listening.

The baseband is a black box and has direct access to the microphone.

Oh, this is true - although the likelihood and ease of it being exploited as a listening device are much lower than that of a device explicitly designed to do so.

Edit: Not to mention that the entire Alexa is a black box, too.

Second Edit: Not trying to claim that you're an idiot, just provide some perspective.

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