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US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

zdnet.com

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Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#171

Post by kevcampb »

kevcampb wrote: post #167
wpietri wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who want to try out LocationSmart, you can use it here: https://www.locationsmart.com/try/ They were about two blocks off, and located me by cell tower. Apparently they don't have (or at least don't admit to having) A-GPS level data for me.

Can you post the SMS opt-in message you received? Curious as to whether this is exploitable as well

I'm betting the opt-in is something along these lines

"FirstName LastName wants to obtain your location..."

Also betting that you can put 160 characters into those fields, so effectively a blank SMS is received

Betting further still that you can just spoof the SMS reply

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#172

Post by ad-hominem »

mindcrime wrote: post #160
codedokode wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically either give up your right for privacy or don't use any new technology? That doesn't look practical. A better idea would be to ban cell carriers (and anyone else) from using location data for anything except explicitly permitted by law, like help in emergencies or conducting investigations.

A better idea would be to ban cell carriers (and anyone else) from using location data for anything except explicitly permitted by law, like help in emergencies or conducting investigations. That doesn't do anything to protect your data from being accessed by the State, which is actually the bigger problem.

That doesn't mean banning corporations from exploiting your location is a bad idea, even if it's not the optimal privacy-enabling solution.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#173

Post by adventured »

lostcolony wrote: post #16
stevehawk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahaha what? There's no myth that we won it alone. Elementary school texts on the subject lay it out fairly clearly that we did it with the French.

There are a worrying number of people in the US who believe in American exceptionalism. When the French are brought up by them, it's generally in the context of "We saved their asses in WWII", not "They were vital in our war of independence".

Trump just spent his formal state visit with Macron repeatedly extolling the role the French played in American independence. Trump addresses almost everything he does to the same audience that elected him (the same people that your premise would imply don't understand how vital France was to US independence). It's blatantly clear that average Americans for two centuries have understood the very important role France played. It is taught in all schools in the US.

Just about all nations believe in their own exceptionalism. Ask a person from Scandinavia what the best nations on earth are sometime. You really don't need to ask, they'll start all of their replies with: in Sweden we are bestest. Ask a French person how glorious their culture is. Ask a person from China how extraordinary their nation is and about how it's going to dominate the world in the future. Ask a German who makes the best cars on earth (they'll volunteer that, you know, Americans should make better cars if they want to fix the trade deficit, snark snark, chortle). Ask a Canadian if their country provides for a superior way of life vs the US - they won't hesitate for a second to proclaim that as a matter of fact their way of doing things is superior. Ask a Japanese person, off the record, if they're superior to the Chinese.

America's exceptionalism, is that it's the only nation aggressively called out for believing it's exceptional.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#174

Post by tome »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #157
dmichulke wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat weary. This might be the final missing piece to connect your mobile phone number to your mobile browser user agent, or even worse, your desktop browser agent.

If the mobile carriers are selling your real time location data, I don't think there is much stopping them from also selling your browser user agents.

I believe that dmichulke means that when the phone number is linked to the user agent it's much more dangerous than when they are sold without that connection being known.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#175

Post by pacala »

mindcrime wrote: post #160
codedokode wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically either give up your right for privacy or don't use any new technology? That doesn't look practical. A better idea would be to ban cell carriers (and anyone else) from using location data for anything except explicitly permitted by law, like help in emergencies or conducting investigations.

A better idea would be to ban cell carriers (and anyone else) from using location data for anything except explicitly permitted by law, like help in emergencies or conducting investigations. That doesn't do anything to protect your data from being accessed by the State, which is actually the bigger problem.

Whataboutism. Yes, there is a bigger problem. No, that should not prevent us from solving the smaller problem first. With regard to the bigger problem, we build checks and balances in the legal system.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#176

Post by chatmasta »

throwawaymath wrote: post #90
sydd wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how can I buy this realtime data? Also > Hedge funds or services who analyze it for hedge funds is the big one. It's normal to track hundreds of millions of people a day and trade stocks based on where they go. Any articles/webpages about this one? Or a company name who is doing it?

Pinsight is a big one. But there are too many to name. In 2018, you should assume that any free service (Unroll.me), web/mobile SDK (Slice), email client (Airmail), personal finance tracker (Mint), integration API (Plaid), geolocator (Foursquare), etc is monetized by selling your data en masse for market research. It's not just location data. Dig into the TOS of free services you use. It's your receipts, your transac…

Link to pinsight: https://pinsightmedia.com

> Ever wonder what your consumer thinks minute-by-minute? Pinsight’s ID Suite gets behind the lock screen to understand the mindset of your best customer. Leveraging 24/7 insights from the mobile device, we uncover new audiences and discover new market opportunities so you can engage with consumers in ways that matter.

“Gets behind the lock screen”

Jeez that is some brazen marketing.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#177

Post by heurist »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

I'm in the space as well. I've tried telling my congressmen but they ignore me. I'm waiting for the backlash, especially will all the recent privacy issues. It hasn't happened yet and the problem is so large that I honestly doubt whether the public will ever truly grasp what the scope.

The advice I always give when this topic comes up us to be very careful with what you install on your phone. The least expensive mobile location data tends to come from random apps collecting the data to sell it, and ad networks. Permission to use your GPS is permission to track you until you uninstall the app.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#178

Post by limsup »

addflip wrote: post #110

It's funny that this is coming up now. The other day I was on the phone with Geico's roadside assistance and they wanted to know my location. I told them I didn't have their app downloaded, they said it wasn't a problem and they could get it without it. Sure enough they could. I checked their disclaimers [1] and they purchase the data from my cell carrier. They didn't even have to know which one. [1] https://www.geic…

Wow. The fact that they can just get this with "oral approval" (relayed by them to your carrier) is shocking to me. This is ridiculous.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#179

Post by dude123456 »

chatmasta wrote: post #158
dude123456 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any company that sells you access to ad real-time bidding. You connect to a event fire-hose that gives you a nice standardized json for each ad target, with plenty of data about the user (including geolocation), and you choose whether to bid or not on each ad, in realtime. It is an open standard: https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project...

Do you get that data before you place the bid? Can you can just bid the minimum amount so you never actually buy an ad, but get the tracking data anyway?

You get all the data (geo, user's year-of-birth, user interests, device type, etc) before you place the bid. All the json data fields are defined in the standard. I can see iOS and Windows-phone in the feed, it's not limited to Android phones.

https://www.iab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/OpenRTB_API_S...

You don't actually have to bid.

(HN is rate-limiting me) edit: Data is pushed to you as fast as you can process it. It's a firehose.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#180

Post by pacala »

droopybuns wrote: post #100
Darthy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with the GSM/UMTS standards themselves. Carriers always know where you are, but one could create a standard where they wouldn't have to know unless you make a call. With enough encryption and effort, I'm pretty sure one could even create a standard where carriers would never know where you are, even while you are using services.

How does one determine which tower to route an incoming call through, in your model? How could roaming work? Spoiler: I don’t think doing what you are describing is feasible.

Spoiler. The utility of the live call is overstated. Most of the people I interact via a phone vastly prefer async SMS over sync voice calls. We can do SMS via polling, the network doesn't need to push anything to us.
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