Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#171

Post by seattle_spring » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 12:28 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #164

trhway wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or putting it in numbers : 530K vs. 130K (with 40K being employed at AMZN/Seattle and 40K at MS/Seattle) - "Information" at https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ca.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/washington.htm#eag as i said, the next best. Compare the scenarios: - a 10%, 4K layoff from AMZN would present a high, by tech standards, unemployment situation of 4% (4K / 90K of the rest of tech capacity in WA with almost half…

We have a 4% unemployment rate locally and there are signs everywhere for all sorts of jobs - its pretty damn good. Most common complaint of any company in Seattle is they can't find enough people to hire. Even a 4k layoff would easily get absorbed (though at different rates, and many would probably get worse pay, since AMZN is at the top of the pay scale here).

Amazon's only at the top due to stock appreciation. Lyft, Airbnb, Google, Facebook, and Uber (all of which have offices of varying sizes in the Seattle area) pay better than Amazon.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#172

Post by hpcjoe » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

davepeck wrote: post #59

I wrote about how my experience with layoffs at Silicon Graphics in 1999 turned out, in retrospect, to be extremely lucky bad luck: https://davepeck.org/2009/02/11/the-luckiest-bad-luck/

I remember those days. The worst layoff I remember, I was at an ACS meeting at the SGI booth when word of layoffs came. They nuked something like 1/3 of our team there.

I escaped all of the layoffs, and finally had my fill of the VP Eng who told me that Linux clusters had no future, and big SMPs were how SGI was going to rise again.

I turned in my resignation a week later (early 2001).

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#173

Post by justherefortart » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:04 AM UTC

scaryspooky wrote: post #88

justherefortart wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't your first check be to yourself? I guess I'm well rounded so that doesn't really apply to me. I hire for roles that consume my time but still provide value (the necessary busy work). I'm a much worse employee as the proud failure of 7 startups (on #8 at the moment). So much bullshit, waste, politics, needless meetings, etc., that working for a company again is one of the most painful things I've ever had…

Your employees will rarely show up if they don't get paid and if they do they won't stick around for long. If you run a business and face a cash flow dilemma the easiest thing to not pay is yourself.

Or you can actually provide a service/product people will pay for. It's like this is confusing for you.

Why would you ever hire employees when you can't pay them? I love the internet sometimes.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#174

Post by hpcjoe » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:05 AM UTC

This was one of the reasons I made the case to my wife that, at the time, we should be in control of our own destiny. No corporation would have my families best interests at heart. No one would be looking out for them when they swung their axe.

So, I argued that I should form a company, start working on selling, marketing, developing, etc.

I used my layoff severance, loaded up credit cards to buy what I needed. Built a business that survived for 14.5 years. Generated millions a year in revenue. Had a small team working for me.

Until a bank came along and shot us in the head over an out-of-formula LOC.

So I am back working for the man. But I have so much more experience now. Much richer in business, in management, in sales and marketing, in addition to engineering and support. I would have done a number of things differently.

This said, having the control over your own destiny, to some degree, as much as your customers allow, was fantastic. You winning or losing was predicated on how hard and smart you worked.

The article is fairly accurate. Coding tests have become a thing. I've noticed that some places ask esoteric irrelevant questions specifically to stump people. Others are genuinely interested in your experience.

If only there was a way to avoid wasting time on the former to spend time with the latter.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#175

Post by derekp7 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #161

fjsolwmv wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps your last employers were dazed when you left.

They still have the power and the money to employ other people. Which is a different situation that needing to be employed to put food on the table.

To put this in a slightly different perspective. Let's say you had hired a babysitter so you could go out for the evening. At the last minute, the babysitter cancels, and it is too late to get another one. Now you are either scrambling (calling relatives, etc) or you cancel your evening plans. Now let's add to this that your kids really like this particular babysitter, who has quit the babysitting business permanently, and it takes a bit of trial and error to find a replacement that will work for your kids.

So an employee leaving does have some impact. On the employee side, of course there is the food-on-the-table issue, which can be important if there isn't a safety net. Which is why it is critical to live within 75% of your paycheck, so that every year you can survive 3 months unemployment.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#176

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:19 AM UTC

The problem is that too many people in tech think that their financial security comes from their job and don't concentrate on learning marketable skills.

I was at a company from 2008-2011 that went through quite a few rounds of layoffs until they finally shut the door. Without fail, everyone who was laid off had another job within a month.

We all knew the writing was on the wall in 2011. Management was completely honest with us. When the day came, we all went out to lunch after our layoffs joked around and from looking at everyone's LinkedIn profile, everyone had a job within a month - we all got a months severance.

I'm in my mid 40s and have no desire to start a company or go into management. I never want a job that doesn't involve hands on coding. These days I go back and forth between contracting, full time "senior software Engineer" and "architect". But I am aggressive about learning, I keep my resume up to date and I'm always networking.

I don't expect any loyalty from a company. I do my best work while I'm there and all I expect is a check twice a month. I know they will let me go if it's best for their business and I'll leave if I can get a significantly better offer or if I'm not growing and keeping my skills marketable.

It's never in 20 years taken me more than a little over a month to get a job making more money from the time I've started looking - and that includes a two week notice. I'm not bragging. In my market (not on the west coast), most developers who know current technology can say the same.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#177

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #64

Spooky23 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech is not a meritocracy. Many of us like to think of it that way, but the reality is that most of the jobs associated with tech are bullshit, and much of tech headcount is IT. The last big place that I worked could easily cut tech headcount in half and hardly notice. A decade from now they can probably reduce headcount 80% in IT and 75% in the business. The impact of global growth won’t impact jobs directly for awh…

> The impact of global growth won’t impact jobs directly for awhile. That's a definitive statement that is more nuanced than that. There are definitely people (myself included) who have been directly impacted by global tech outsourcing. I won't get into the specifics but I can tell you that there are an increasing number of dev shops outside of the US that are specializing in solid communication. That's been one of t…

I didn’t mean to come across in such an insensitive way.

The perspective I was coming from was a little more meta. To date we’ve seen outsourcing of business functions and consolidation of job functions where technology advancements have reduced labor needs. VMWare eliminated datacenter hardware teams. AWS eliminated data centers. Modern clients eliminate all of the bullshit associated with Windows PCs.

We are getting to a point where business functions will go down the same path. This is an age of giants.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#178

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:25 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #151

vinceguidry wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea behind talking about classes isn't that there aren't people who don't fit the mold, but to just discuss the broader trends. For every frugal business owner making upper middle class incomes, (and deeply concerned that the economy will continue to support their livelihoods) there's fifty filling up middle management spots in midsize organizations or upper management spots in small organizations, safe in the u…

The problem is that unless I'm interpreting it completely incorrectly, your descriptions are comic book renditions based on common prejudices that don't really map to reality, which makes me question whether this is based on experience and exposure to people in the middle and upper class or just an amalgamation of memes you've been exposed to online and have taken as evidence. Doctors and lawyers typically work incre…

I consider professionals to be middle and not upper middle class.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#179

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:49 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96

vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author of the article is misinformed about the true landscape of wealth and income inequality. The middle class is ultimately defined by the ability and need to build your own safety net. The upper middle class is able to do this with plenty of wealth to spare for luxuries like private schooling for their kids, income security is provided by their network. Just tap your network and find another job. The upper mid…

> The upper class doesn't need to fool around with a network, they are networks unto themselves. At this level, enough ambient wealth is floating around that you can hire professionals to manage it for you and never have to do anything you don't want to This is incorrect. Elites in every society are highly politically exposed. Their network is critical to maintain. America's elite also consist of a large number of se…

Sure. I didn't mean to say that. They just don't need them for direct financial security the same way the middle class does.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#180

Post by cbayram » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:47 AM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #77

desireco42 wrote: post #67

I am one of those weirdos, that change jobs so often, I do contracting often enough, that I get fired quite often, or quit. I remember when one big corp I had long term contract decided to 'trim the fat' and laid us all. My neighbor felt bad and wanted to make lunch for me. I explained her that the same day, I went to another big corp (pretending to be startup) and got much higher rate I always wanted. That lasted a…

I went a similar route (contracting) but you seem to have more resilience. I recently went a couple of months in between contracts after a long-term one ended and started panicking after 2 months, jumping into something that wasn't ideal. It's feast or famine with contracting, which I'm still getting used to (hint: the feasts are easier to adapt to).

The stoic says prepare for the famine during feasts.