Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#171

Post by dogma1138 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

donogh wrote: post #139

mikekchar wrote: post #114

This article is really confusing. Basically the point is that under the current terms of service they tell you that if you are outside of the US then you are doing business with their Ireland office. Since the Ireland office is in the EU, it is subject to the GDPR. So that means that everybody outside of the US will be covered by the GDPR (because they are doing business with an EU company). They are changing their t…

Not contradicting, worth pointing out for the Americans in the audience: even if you have an exclusively US-based company, working with any EU users means you are in scope for GDPR. The consequences for violating GDPR are quite severe -- up to 20 million euro, or 4% of global turnover, whichever is greater . Again, this applies to US companies even if it's a single record of EU personal data. Furthermore, individuals…

That’s not exactly correct GDPR is a mess.

If you are a non-EU company and you don’t have any legal entities in the EU even if you deal with EU customers (retail) the application of GDPR isn’t going to be relevant at least initially.

(The fear for example is that PayPal etc. will force you to comply in the usually blind and deaf PayPal manner for fear of EU retaliation)

If you are a non-EU company with no legal entities in the EU but you are dealing with EU companies and process data for them those companies would have to ensure you are compliant this is a purely B2B route.

If you are a non-EU company with EU legal entities this is the vector the DPAs will use to go after you.

The GDPR is currently in a retarded state with near zero official guidance and definition for things that matter. And as far as non-EU companies go GDPR is well in a though spot. GDPR does not trump lawful data retention and data access requirements in the EU those fall under then final jurisdiction of the high court but there is no way for them to influence non-EU law.

And SOX is a terrible example SOX affects a tiny portion of companies and those who need to comply are huge and there are clear definitions, requirements and arbitration channels which the GDPR lacks.

P.S. we’re talking so far about the periphery of the EU, Canada, Australia The US etc... when you’ll find a way to make Alibaba and China at al comply let me know please.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#172

Post by patrickaljord » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #152

charlesdm wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you just say, "Oh I have consent" then the user can withdraw consent. If you actually needed that information (like the user's name!) then you are absolutely screwed. Well, only screwed if they want to keep their account? I can assume that resulting in Facebook closing down your account. All in all, I doubt millions of people will request data under the GDPR. But I guess the fines are significant enough to worry…

The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data. You actually have to keep their account active and make it work somehow. If you can't, then you are libel for a really huge penalty. I can't add enough smileys to that, so you will just have to imagine them.

> The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data.

That's actually pretty horrible. How about freedom of association and freedom to contract? These two are basic human rights. If one thinks their privacy rights are not respected they are free not to associate or contract and same thing for the entity on the other side of the contract, why should one party be forced to contract anyway? This is authoritarian. The basis of a free society is the freedom to contract and associate between individuals. If the GDPR makes that impossible and it's highly liberticidal.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#173

Post by rmc » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

joering2 wrote: post #4

Couldnt they move all they servers to some thid world country and just dont care about Gdpr at all??

They could. But they get ~25% of their revenue from the EU, so they'd have to give that up. They'd have to risk losing their social network monopoly, and risk an upstart getting millions of users (in the EU) and then posing a serious risk to Facebook globally.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#174

Post by lwansbrough » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #49

lwansbrough wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the EU government would be in more trouble than either Google or Facebook if both companies decided to stop servicing all EU citizens. I think the only reason big companies aren't threatening that is because GDPR gives them a massive advantage over small businesses and basically permanently solidifies their positions on top of the tech world in those countries.

That would be a massive dystopia if companies had more power than an entire continents democratic governments. Might as well just make way for the megacorps and corporate citizenship at that point

> That would be a massive dystopia if companies had more power than an entire continents democratic governments.

Governance is balancing individuals' and corporate interests. Companies like Google and Facebook have a tremendous amount of power because they're the gateways to information. Those two companies alone are the internet for many people. Far fewer people would push for the over-reaching GDPR legislation if they knew it would impact their ability to use the internet as they know it (which it does, ultimately, one way or the other.)

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#175

Post by rmc » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:10 AM UTC

zenhack wrote: post #10

joering2 wrote: post #4

Couldnt they move all they servers to some thid world country and just dont care about Gdpr at all??

They'd also have to stop being based in Europe (they're officially headquartered in Ireland, because tax evasion), and (here's the kicker): stop doing business with all of Europe. Even if they had to say screw it and not do any targeting of their adds at all, it really wouldn't make any business sense for them to take their ball and go home.

FB's HQ isn't in Ireland. I think it's in the USA.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#176

Post by noir-york » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #172

mikekchar wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data. You actually have to keep their account active and make it work somehow. If you can't, then you are libel for a really huge penalty. I can't add enough smileys to that, so you will just have to imagine them.

> The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data. That's actually pretty horrible. How about freedom of association and freedom to contract? These two are basic human rights. If one thinks their privacy rights are not respected they are free not to associate or contract and same thing for the entity on the other side of the con…

> How about freedom of association and freedom to contract

How free are you when one of the parties is naive (in the context of the contract) and has little power, and the other party has the interest, the means and the power to force an unfair contract?

Freedom of association implies the freedom to NOT associate. Yet non-Facebook users are tracked by Facebook, without their consent.

Laws like GDPR are needed to help protect individuals from powerful interests.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#177

Post by morgante » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:13 AM UTC

donogh wrote: post #139

mikekchar wrote: post #114

This article is really confusing. Basically the point is that under the current terms of service they tell you that if you are outside of the US then you are doing business with their Ireland office. Since the Ireland office is in the EU, it is subject to the GDPR. So that means that everybody outside of the US will be covered by the GDPR (because they are doing business with an EU company). They are changing their t…

Not contradicting, worth pointing out for the Americans in the audience: even if you have an exclusively US-based company, working with any EU users means you are in scope for GDPR. The consequences for violating GDPR are quite severe -- up to 20 million euro, or 4% of global turnover, whichever is greater . Again, this applies to US companies even if it's a single record of EU personal data. Furthermore, individuals…

> Again, this applies to US companies even if it's a single record of EU personal data.

This is part of why I think GDPR is a disaster for startups. It's a massive regulatory burden which big companies will be able to comply with but small startups don't have the legal horsepower to handle.

Typical EU regulatory overreach.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#178

Post by rmc » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:13 AM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #172

mikekchar wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data. You actually have to keep their account active and make it work somehow. If you can't, then you are libel for a really huge penalty. I can't add enough smileys to that, so you will just have to imagine them.

> The really, really, really awesome thing about GDPR is that you can't deny service because someone wants to opt out of sharing their data. That's actually pretty horrible. How about freedom of association and freedom to contract? These two are basic human rights. If one thinks their privacy rights are not respected they are free not to associate or contract and same thing for the entity on the other side of the con…

> freedom to contract

I think you'll find this libertarian "right to enter into any contract for anything" doesn't exist in EU law.

The Charter of Fundamental Rights doesn't list it. It does list the right to protection of personal data.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#179

Post by patrickaljord » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

beefield wrote: post #100

hartator wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming GDPR is good. I don’t think so. I don’t want GDRP in the US. The worst abuser of privacy - right now - is the government. I don’t think putting redtapes on startups will solve anything.

Weird. Libertarians keep on saying that government is less efficient in producing practically all possible services than private sector. Why would that not apply to service "collecting and using private data for gain"?

They do have more info but they're really bad at processing it.

Re: Facebook to change user terms, limiting effect of EU privacy law

#180

Post by simion314 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

__m wrote: post #103

simion314 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also think that food industry should not be regulated, I mean is it important that rats could walk on your food ingredients as long as users don't know and are happy with the final product? Do you think that food businesses are affected by this regulations and we do not see the a move fast and kill people in the industry? Same for fire safety,road safety, air transport safety regulations, I am sure that many b…

Rats should only be allowed in the kitchens of startups

You are right, the business could fail but they have the option to pivot and sell rat hide, regulation would harm the possibilities of making money on the back of society.