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The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

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Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that it's not easy for the populace to tell the difference between 'science' and science in a lot of cases. You see this on all parts of the political spectrums. Soviet Lysenkoism, left wing anti vax crap, and neo liberal austerity. EDIT: Krugman had this to say about the R&R austerity paper "What the Reinhart-Rogoff affair shows is the extent to which austerity has been sold on false pretenses. For thre…

The same Krugman who pronounced the markets would never recover from Trump's election or that since we didn't pass a large enough stimulus we were doomed to low GDP growth rates forever?

Paul Krugman was wrong on different issues, thereby completely proving everyone who agreed with him on this other issue wrong. Got them.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#172
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add a last point that a scientific paper (or a particular experimental result) is not sufficient for 'science'. Citing a paper as either a truth or discovery is a disingenuous. The endeavour of science gets at a kind of consensus by having lots of papers, lots of experiments, lots of additional layers of experiments build on each other. And yes it's annoying to realize a given paper is misleading, has errors, or…

Thank you for saying this! This is a common view I see outside academia, where people interpret a single paper to mean that something is definitively shown. I think news organizations make this worse. Whenever a new paper comes out they'll champion it as fact if doing so leads to clicks. Peer reviewers can only hope to validate that the science was done well, not that it is inarguably correct. It requires a body of w…

> I think news organizations make this worse.

University PR is far more guilty. Buzzfeed isn't scanning the current issue of "Physical Review Letters" for the latest scoop.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#173
post #68

The site is down so I can't read the original report, but I've read reports on this topic in the past so I'm going to chime in with some "usual suspects" caveats: 1. No result is 100% reproducible because you can never completely reproduce the conditions of any experiment. The best you can hope to do is to reproduce the conditions that matter , but enumerating those has to be part of the theory you are testing, and s…

> 1. No result is 100% reproducible because you can never completely reproduce the conditions of any experiment.

It's worth noting that this is part of the goal of reproducing results. If two identical experiments produce the same result, you're only providing proof for the very narrow theory the experiment tests. Slightly different experiments allow you to demonstrate that the theory is applicable. Imagine if evolution only occurred in the Galapagos, or if gravity only worked in an apple orchard in Cambridge. The only reason we know that evolution and gravity aren't local oddities is that they have both been tested in a wide variety of locations, with a wide variety of experiments.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#174
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The data was bad, the processes were bad, there was no replication. People are really quick to say this, but how many people have actually studied the 'racial science' literature of the 20s and 30s and figured out to what extent it meets the methodological standards of today? Yes, we know that they drew incorrect (and reprehensible) conclusions. It doesn't necessarily follow that their methods were any worse (episte…

Studies about people in general are of poor quality, due to difficult to define metrics. Even today, psychology and sociology studies aren't rigorous for the simple reason that it's hard to measure these things. Biological studies are hard too, it's hard to suss out the confounding variables and mechanisms of bodily functions. Just the premise of the "racial science" studies would render them invalid, how could they…

This does not seem to be a line of argument that flatters technocratic rule, especially considering that governance can hardly ignore the issues that are the purviews of economics, sociology, psychology, and other "soft" disciplines.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#175
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The end-product of science is not truth, it is explanations of observations. That sounds a whole lot like truth to me, or at least, like any sane construal of truth.

That depends on what you mean by "truth". Newtonian mechanics says that gravity is pulling you down towards the surface of the earth. Is that "true"? It has tremendous explanatory power, but I would argue that it is not actually true. The truth is (as far as we can tell at the moment) that the surface of the earth is pushing you up and accelerating you through curved space-time.

Ultimately, it comes down to semantics. Does a vacuum suck or does external pressure push in on the vacuum? My highschool chem teacher said, "there is no suck," but, depending on your perspective, either explanation is valid. Reality is subjective and language is imperfect.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not that all is perfect in science. It is not. The argument is that strong replication for each study is not required for progress. Back to my analogy to the algorithms like Adaboost. Why ever aggregate over a a bunch of weak classifiers over a single strong one? Well, please correct me if I am wrong (machine learning is not my field), but the primary advantage is computational cost. Sometimes, for th…

The ensemble advantage is completely the other way around - we might choose to use a large ensemble of classifiers because they can get slightly better results than the best single strong classifier we can make; and we might choose not to use an ensemble because of computational cost reasons, especially because you train a model once but infer forever (and likely on more limited hardware) and inference for a hundred…

Always willing to learn more. I was going off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdaBoost which mentions "Unlike neural networks and SVMs, the AdaBoost training process selects only those features known to improve the predictive power of the model, reducing dimensionality and potentially improving execution time as irrelevant features need not be computed."

edit: When I read about ensemble theory, you receive support for the increased computational cost.

Evaluating the prediction of an ensemble typically requires more computation than evaluating the prediction of a single model, so ensembles may be thought of as a way to compensate for poor learning algorithms by performing a lot of extra computation. Fast algorithms such as decision trees are commonly used in ensemble methods (for example Random Forest), although slower algorithms can benefit from ensemble techniques as well.

But I found this interesting:

Empirically, ensembles tend to yield better results when there is a significant diversity among the models.[4][5] Many ensemble methods, therefore, seek to promote diversity among the models they combine.[6][7] Although perhaps non-intuitive, more random algorithms (like random decision trees) can be used to produce a stronger ensemble than very deliberate algorithms (like entropy-reducing decision trees).[8] Using a variety of strong learning algorithms, however, has been shown to be more effective than using techniques that attempt to dumb-down the models in order to promote diversity.[9]

..which under my analogy would seem to suggest that exact replication is less productive than having a diversity of study designs.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#177
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies about people in general are of poor quality, due to difficult to define metrics. Even today, psychology and sociology studies aren't rigorous for the simple reason that it's hard to measure these things. Biological studies are hard too, it's hard to suss out the confounding variables and mechanisms of bodily functions. Just the premise of the "racial science" studies would render them invalid, how could they…

Which studies are you referring to? If you don't have anything specific in mind, then you can't really judge the quality or compare it to the quality of comparable research today.

As I wrote above, studies about people, which the aforementioned Nazi stuff would fall into. I don't have a specific study in mind, but I do know that the further you stray from math/physics/chemistry, creating metrics and isolating variables is very, very difficult.

I don't need a specific study to know that. Any sociology/economic/psychology research should be taken with a grain of salt.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#178
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, 'science' not science? Got it. That was a pretty quick Godwining, by the way.

So you'd ignore one of the most horrific and important examples of widely accepted science going wrong because of an internet meme?

The citation of "Godwin's law" in this way is so tiresome. Firstly, the law just says that Nazis will come up -- not that bringing them up necessarily invalidates one's argument. Godwin himself has endorsed likening some groups to Nazis.

More importantly, the example of the Nazis is useful in an ethical argument, because they're an almost universally acknowledged example of evil. Much like we aim to test our programs with extreme inputs, we can use the "extreme input" of Nazism to test our ethical arguments. If I posit some universal ethical standard, and then find that it doesn't seem to work if we take the Nazis, we've proven by counterexample that my standard is not universal after all.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#179
There has to be similar prestige/career-building/notoriety/funding for spending time on reproducing the experiments of others. Without that shift there will clearly be a greater tendency to just try something new.

Also, when experiments depend on source code, etc. we need real engineering tools/principles applied. (Something like: “you can’t publish paper X if you aren’t including a public repository with build/run instructions”.) Unfortunately, there are all kinds of reasons why scripts/builds could fail just a few months or years later so they would have to be checked too.

I think it would be cool if document-generation caught on in the publication of papers, i.e. the paper itself is generated by running actual experiment scripts and producing charts, etc. from plain text source.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#180
post #68

The site is down so I can't read the original report, but I've read reports on this topic in the past so I'm going to chime in with some "usual suspects" caveats: 1. No result is 100% reproducible because you can never completely reproduce the conditions of any experiment. The best you can hope to do is to reproduce the conditions that matter , but enumerating those has to be part of the theory you are testing, and s…

> 3. The end-product of science is not truth, it is explanations of observations.

The term 'science' is used in this way. Perhaps it should not be. Perhaps semantics drive the issue.

In the field in which I am familiar, we have 'expert witnesses' that will use reproducible scientific principles to analyze, for instance, blood scatter to determine the angle in which a shotgun was held when it discharged and blew off a particular person's head. The principles -- based on physics, chemistry, etc -- are sound and scientific.

The problem is, we will invariably have TWO very scientific expert witnesses who BOTH use reproducible and accepted methods. Yet, using their scientific tools, they will come to two utterly different conclusions.

It's left to a jury to decide which interpretation is correct.

While the tools used by the experts are scientific, their opinions are not. While their scientific tools are reproducible (for instance, the speed at which coagulating blood and brain tissue will slide down a stucco wall given all the variables such as temperature, humidity, friction coefficients, etc.) their ultimate reconstruction of what happened is not reproducible, and it is left to lay people to draw their conclusions.

There should be more of a distinction between Science and History. That is, science -- strictly defined -- is all about reproducibility. History -- by definition -- is not. Using scientific tools to reconstruct a past event does not result in a 'scientific' theory. Rather, it results in a historical theory arrived at with scientific tools.

Whether it is blood scatter from a murder (or suicide, depending on whom you ask), the formation of the Grand Canyon, or the development of finch beaks on Galapagos, the ultimate theories are inherently non-scientific as they can not be tested. The methods and tools used to derive the theories can be... but not the conclusion itself.

In short, perhaps the term 'science' is being used for things outside its domain. (Or, alternatively, if we wish to include such things inside the domain, we should broaden the strict definition of science. Like I said, there are some issues of semantics that may be driving some of the issues in the article... other issues, of course, pertain to sloppiness, errors, and the like.)

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