Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

blog.mozilla.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 200 posts

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#171

Post by nirv »

DonHopkins wrote: post #143

The most practical, logical, obvious move would to be to reimplement Thunderbird as an Electron app. But of course that would be untenable for Mozilla because it would be admitting defeat to Chrome. The problem is that Mozilla has no alternative to Electron. There are a number of false starts and head fakes, but none of them have any buy in or support or future.

I dream that someday Mozilla will fully commit into developing a similar platform on the basis of the Servo/Quantum. This would allow to quickly mockup highly parallel and fortunately high-performance applications based on web-technologies, e.g. Rust engine via WebAssembly and HTML5+/CSS3+ layout.

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#172

Post by DonHopkins »

nirv wrote: post #171
DonHopkins wrote: post #143

The most practical, logical, obvious move would to be to reimplement Thunderbird as an Electron app. But of course that would be untenable for Mozilla because it would be admitting defeat to Chrome. The problem is that Mozilla has no alternative to Electron. There are a number of false starts and head fakes, but none of them have any buy in or support or future.

I dream that someday Mozilla will fully commit into developing a similar platform on the basis of the Servo/Quantum. This would allow to quickly mockup highly parallel and fortunately high-performance applications based on web-technologies, e.g. Rust engine via WebAssembly and HTML5+/CSS3+ layout.

Just like we dreamed that Mozilla would someday fully commit to supporting xulrunner, when we were working on TomTom Home.

In the mean time: wake up, smell the coffee, and use Electron. Problem already solved!

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#173

Post by u801e »

sangnoir wrote: post #122
coliveira wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is where the MONEY for Mozilla is coming from. It certainly is not from email clients. Firefox is the reason why Mozilla receives so much money, and it is obvious that they want to capitalize and concentrate their efforts on the browser. Considering that they're getting a lot of success on this effort, it is difficult to criticize them for doing this.

> The issue is where the MONEY for Mozilla is coming from. It certainly is not from email clients. Maybe Mozilla ought to change their mission statement to "Maximize revenue" then: neglecting Thunderbird does not jibe with "Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all." The Internet is much more than the web - email is a huge part of it. Maybe I'm being naive, but IMO,…

> The Internet is much more than the web - email is a huge part of it.

The sad part is that the vast majority of people have no idea this is the case. Email? Oh I just use gmail in my browser (rather than a client with SMTP and IMAP). Discussion groups? Oh I just use Google groups or some person's private walled forum in my browser (rather than usenet with NNTP). Chat? Oh I use Slack in my browser (rather than IRC with an IRC client).

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#174

Post by carussell »

nirv wrote: post #170
carussell wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the big thing is the "serious" part. We're basically talking about the patch paradox[1]. At any point in time, someone could have stepped up and made it known they were willing to do the necessary work to move off XUL. But without a similar commitment from upstream to accept a future involving a mail client built on web standard tech, it would be a wasted effort. Heck, Nylas even built their own such email…

There're many decent web-based proprietary mail solutions, and I was really excited once Nylas Mail showed up, even though it's Electron-based. And then instantly disappointed by its license. Later, I was considering switching to Nylas Mail when they re-licensed their open-source client, but turned out by "please use this" they still require you to opt-in with Nylas Identity tied to Nylas Cloud[1] They could only hel…

> but turned out by "please use this" they still require you to opt-in with Nylas Identity tied to Nylas Cloud

We're talking about Thunderbird development. When I wrote that they changed to a compatible license and reached out to say "please use this", that's not referring to their attempt to get users. That's a reference to their attempt to donate their code and energy towards improving Thunderbird.

> They could only help replace free (from mail vendors) Thunderbird, playing by the rules of the Thunderbird.

Huh?

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#175

Post by buovjaga »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #137
buovjaga wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the funds are Thunderbird's alone, originating from donations. Mozilla Foundation is just their fiscal home. Thunderbird Council went shopping for a new fiscal home for a while, even considering The Document Foundation, but decided to stay with MoFo: https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/2017/05/thunderbirds-fu...

Isn't it Upwork are hiring a programmer to work a contract for Thunderbird? Incidentally there was a post that was heavily critical of Upwork but is now "dead", it included points like: >Then they take a 2.75% cut from the client, a 20% cut from the freelancer // It seemed, factual, apposite, and informed; definitely strange it was killed.

> Isn't it Upwork are hiring a programmer to work a contract for Thunderbird?

The Mozilla Foundation just forces Thunderbird to use Upwork as the channel to hire people. I think it's obvious that if Thunderbird Council was able to decide, they would never use Upwork.

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#176

Post by nirv »

carussell wrote: post #174
nirv wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There're many decent web-based proprietary mail solutions, and I was really excited once Nylas Mail showed up, even though it's Electron-based. And then instantly disappointed by its license. Later, I was considering switching to Nylas Mail when they re-licensed their open-source client, but turned out by "please use this" they still require you to opt-in with Nylas Identity tied to Nylas Cloud[1] They could only hel…

> but turned out by "please use this" they still require you to opt-in with Nylas Identity tied to Nylas Cloud We're talking about Thunderbird development. When I wrote that they changed to a compatible license and reached out to say "please use this", that's not referring to their attempt to get users. That's a reference to their attempt to donate their code and energy towards improving Thunderbird. > They could onl…

> That's a reference to their [Nylos]* attempt to donate their code and energy towards improving Thunderbird.

(*My edit in brackets) You meant towards improving Nylas Mail, not Thunderbird? If not, I don't get any sense in this argument, it sounds like Nylas was reaching out Mozilla to replace Thunderbird with their re-licensed Nylas Mail. I'm not sure that ever happened (and I'm not sure GPL is a totally suitable license for Mozilla Foundation[1]). If you made a typo and meant "Nylas Mail", then I get your argument about development, but I see how community (me included) would be reluctant to make any contributions into a not entirely free product without forking.

> Huh?

Simply put, I'm fully agree that upstream Thunderbird could clearly indicate their will to move off Gecko to stimulate code contributions from community. I see how it might work out for the already popular, long time-tested, free Thunderbird, but I don't believe Nylos Mail is the same case here.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Public_License

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#177

Post by pbhjpbhj »

aidenn0 wrote: post #163
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any specific features you believe makes it better than TB? First impressions aren't great -- is Claws an "email should be text only" advocate? -- brief look and the default mail format being non-standard; and all the screenshots on the website showing text only emails; tools including a special script to order threads by date (how else would you order them?); and the latest amendments to those scripts being over a ye…

You need to enable a plugin for html mail, but the plugin ships with claws. Up until 2013 the best option was a janky GtkHtml based plugin (about as good as average html e-mail renderings from early 00s, so not good), the current one is webkit based and works great[1] What do you mean by "default mail https://www.colino.net/wordpress/archives/2013/03/14/claws-m... being non-standard"? you don't need a script to order…

Excellent, thanks for such a detailed response.

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#178

Post by jonathanyc »

carussell wrote: post #156
_m8fo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm familiar with tax exemption - my question is more surrounding any benefits of the way they're organized. They, for example could just be a benefit corporation. I doubt this would be better as donations would no longer be tax exempt, among other things. I guess I'm just curious to the pros and cons of the way they're organized as of now.

Mozilla has always reaped a lot of benefits, PR-wise, out of the impression people form when they hear that it's a non-profit.

Are you implying it somehow is meaningfully different? Also, I actually tried asking my technically inclined friends and none of them were aware that Mozilla was a non-profit, to my surprise. So I can’t agree with either your premise or your conclusion.

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#179

Post by carussell »

jonathanyc wrote: post #178
carussell wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla has always reaped a lot of benefits, PR-wise, out of the impression people form when they hear that it's a non-profit.

Are you implying it somehow is meaningfully different? Also, I actually tried asking my technically inclined friends and none of them were aware that Mozilla was a non-profit, to my surprise. So I can’t agree with either your premise or your conclusion.

> Are you implying it somehow is meaningfully different?

I don't know what you're asking. Different from what?

You think the fact that your friends have never heard that Mozilla is a non-profit contradicts what I wrote? I did not say that most people know that Mozilla is a non-profit. I didn't even say that most technical people would know that.

Re: Mozilla Is Hiring a Developer to Work on Thunderbird Full-Time

#180

Post by carussell »

nirv wrote: post #176
carussell wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but turned out by "please use this" they still require you to opt-in with Nylas Identity tied to Nylas Cloud We're talking about Thunderbird development. When I wrote that they changed to a compatible license and reached out to say "please use this", that's not referring to their attempt to get users. That's a reference to their attempt to donate their code and energy towards improving Thunderbird. > They could onl…

> That's a reference to their [Nylos]* attempt to donate their code and energy towards improving Thunderbird. (*My edit in brackets) You meant towards improving Nylas Mail, not Thunderbird? If not, I don't get any sense in this argument, it sounds like Nylas was reaching out Mozilla to replace Thunderbird with their re-licensed Nylas Mail. I'm not sure that ever happened (and I'm not sure GPL is a totally suitable li…

> My edit in brackets) You meant towards improving Nylas Mail, not Thunderbird?

No. What I wrote is what I meant.

> it sounds like Nylas was reaching out Mozilla to replace Thunderbird with their re-licensed Nylas Mail

Yes. (But not "replace", necessarily. Replace parts. Merge. Improve.)

> I'm not sure that ever happened

Uh, okay? If you hadn't heard that before, that's... fine. But, I mean, now you have. And I don't know what else to say.

> I'm not sure GPL is a totally suitable license for Mozilla Foundation

You're right; it's not. Thunderbird is MPL. They can't accept GPL contributions and continue to make releases available under MPL. That's why I specifically mentioned how Nylas relicensed their code to one that is compatible (MIT).

> I'm fully agree that upstream Thunderbird could clearly indicate their will to move off Gecko

I didn't say move off Gecko. I said dropping XUL. Moving off Gecko is almost definitely not in plans for the short term, and probably not even in the long term.

This conversation has been excruciating.

Post reply on HN