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Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

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Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#171

Post by kgwgk »

hocuspocus wrote: post #170
kgwgk wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on how you calculate the cost. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_citie... https://www.atlasandboots.com/remote-jobs/most-expensive-cit... https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index

If you calculate unrealistically, yes, sure :) Day-to-day expenses are a tiny part of a typical budget. In most scenarios, housing, income taxes and transportation alone will easily cost you twice as much in SF compared to Zürich. As a software engineer, the salary difference should make up for it, or even reach levels that are unlikely in Switzerland. That's great, but for most people, I can guarantee you, Zürich is…

I don’t argue that Zurich can be affordable (mostly because salaries are higher in general). But the median single family home seems to go for $1.5mn both in Switzerland and Zurich. I don’t think transportation is cheaper in Zurich but I guess income taxes alone can make a difference.

The point is that many things, including many things that “rich foreigners” use to do, are more expensive in Zurich than in San Francisco. For example [1] a hair cut is twice as much ($62 vs $30), a basic dinner at a neighborhood pub for two is 50% more ($74 vs $50), going to the cinema is 30% more ($18 vs $14), a gym membership is 30% more ($118 vs 91$), etc.

[1] https://www.finews.ch/images/download/Mapping.the.worlds.pri...

edit: in the linked document, monthly rent for a mid-range 2-bedroom apartment is 37% higher in San Francisco ($3449 vs $2520). However, the cost of transportation in its different forms is higher in Zurich.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#172

Post by gambiting »

phil21 wrote: post #111
soperj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but there are cases even in small countries where this didn't happen. Like trademe in New Zealand which was just like ebay. Ebay still hasn't become the major place to do auctions in new zealand.

I think you just defined a moat. A tiny low population country that is one of the most hard to reach major countries in the world kind of proves that point, does it not? Basically no one is competing in NZ because no one cares about the NZ market. It's simply not large enough. Until it is. I do think there is a lot to be said about not trying to build these giant world-eating companies that require you selling your s…

In Poland eBay didn't make a single dent because Allegro is such a huge beast(and in my opinion is actually better than Ebay is many many ways), and that's in a country of 40+ million people. Even facebook struggled at the beginning because everyone had a profile on nk.pl so why bother with a new service. Even Amazon still doesn't have a presence, because again, Allegro is the best destination for online shopping.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#173

Post by gros_roberts »

hueving wrote: post #48
timewarrior wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in SF and in South Bay. Recently moved to Seattle , closely associated to the India and Swiss tech ecosystem. In my experience further away you are from SF, less cutting edge you are. In my experience even South Bay is 6 months behind SF. SF is a big melting pot, where a huge amount of talent are trying out new things and they are open to sharing their experiences - be it about latest technologies or lat…

This is satire, right? You're suggesting that ideas don't make it from SF to mountain view in less than 6 months with thousands of people commuting between the two each day and cross pollination of meetups on both sides. Containerization and its orchestration all started in the south bay. Pray tell, what was in use in SF for 6 months before it hit the startups based in MV, Sunnyvale, Palo Alto, etc.

This whole website is satire, mate.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#174

Post by untog »

jimmywanger wrote: post #168
untog wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their cause is even more sympathetic than DACA. I wouldn't go that far. DACA recipients were brought to the country as children and literally know nothing else, often including the language of their "home" country. H1Bs might be more beneficial economically, but I'm not convinced they are more sympathetic.

> DACA recipients were brought to the country as children and literally know nothing else, often including the language of their "home" country. Not the country's problem. If you expose children to the consequences of your wrongdoing and mistakes, they suffer as well as you. Otherwise, that incentivizes wrongdoing. Another example - if you rob a bank, and pay for your kid's private school tuition is it "wrong" to tak…

> Not the country's problem.

The country decides what the country's problems are and are not. DACA has widespread public support - 83% of voters support a pathway to citizenship, according a to a poll by Fox News (of all places):

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/09/28/fox-news-poll-83-...

So it's safe to say the country considers it a problem, and a solvable one at that. You don't need to use wholly inaccurate analogies when people already understand the issue.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#175

Post by mattgreenrocks »

jimmywanger wrote: post #167
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d argue SV does so well because SV is fundamentally extractive in how it uses tech. It uses tech as a way to strip mine a particular domain, often bypassing incumbents in the process. There is nothing innovative about this process. It is not ‘high’ tech so much as applied tech. Another take on this: look at the type of people that SV idolizes by and large. Are they mostly hackers? Or business people? SV is a colony…

> It uses tech as a way to strip mine a particular domain, often bypassing incumbents in the process. The term strip mine is a loaded term. In the classical sense, it devastates the ecosystem while extracting resources that are impossible to replace. In fact, Silicon Valley does not do that. People aren't going to stop needing transportation because Uber used up all the transportation, and it won't stop needing place…

Strip mining is a loaded term, and a touch unfair, perhaps. But I'd argue that tech itself is a resource of sorts, and needs periodic re-investment in order to continue to sustain high growth. I do think SV strip mines tech itself. (I got these thoughts from Alan Kay, they aren't my own, but I keep thinking about them.)

Where is the Xerox PARC of 2018? Why isn't there one? We have more computing power and are economically (as a whole) better off than at any other point in history.

At some point, you have to start aiming for the moon again.

Edit: capital-B business to me is the ultra-aggressive dominate-everything mindset that seems to corrupt a lot of people.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#176

Post by kgwgk »

kgwgk wrote: post #171
hocuspocus wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you calculate unrealistically, yes, sure :) Day-to-day expenses are a tiny part of a typical budget. In most scenarios, housing, income taxes and transportation alone will easily cost you twice as much in SF compared to Zürich. As a software engineer, the salary difference should make up for it, or even reach levels that are unlikely in Switzerland. That's great, but for most people, I can guarantee you, Zürich is…

I don’t argue that Zurich can be affordable (mostly because salaries are higher in general). But the median single family home seems to go for $1.5mn both in Switzerland and Zurich. I don’t think transportation is cheaper in Zurich but I guess income taxes alone can make a difference. The point is that many things, including many things that “rich foreigners” use to do, are more expensive in Zurich than in San Franci…

> the median single family home seems to go for $1.5mn both in Switzerland and Zurich.

I meant both in SF an Zurich.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#177

Post by coldtea »

Cyph0n wrote: post #82
coldtea wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but they'll reap the benefits of being decent people.

I don't follow. So if your company "conquers" the world, everyone associated with it is an "indecent" person?

Statistically yes. Though, not "everyone associated with it", mostly the top dogs.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#178

Post by bogomipz »

microtherion wrote: post #122
bogomipz wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"I think one of the biggest challenge for Switzerland tech scene is that there is no viable immigration path for a non-EU citizen" This is not true. It's up to the local canton to grant citizenship[1]. It has noting to do with EU vs non-EU either. Switzerland itself is not actually part of the EU[2]. For someone who visits so often, it seems odd that you don't know that. In fact even in the video in your link says t…

> It has noting to do with EU vs non-EU either. Switzerland has a treaty with the EU that gives EU citizens the right to live and work in Switzerland (and vice versa). For non-EU citizens, the situation is far less clear cut.

Yes understood, but the OPs claim was about citizenship no working and living in Switzerland. And Swiss citizenship has nothig to do with whether you are from an EU country or not.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#179

Post by _nalply »

danielvinson wrote: post #84
_nalply wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually Swiss people find a way around this limitation. Swap laundry time slots with neighbours, for example.

I don't understand why would there be a time slot in the first place... do people not own their own laundry machines in Switzerland?

I think it also depends where you live in Switzerland. From foreigners complaining about it I deduct that Zurich tends to be relatively strict. Where I live (Espace Mittelland) this is a non-problem.

Re: Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV

#180

Post by reaperducer »

timewarrior wrote: post #12
sailingparrot wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not have world conquering ambitions - which kinda works against them. Works against them towards what? Not wanting to conquer the world is legitimate, I don't see why everyone should absolutely want to become the next Bezos.

Imagine you build an AirBnb like solution limited to Switzerland market. AirBnb will eventually come and eat your lunch. In today's globalized world - if you are not one of the bigger players and do not have moat (govt contract, some other kind of exclusivity) - other bigger players will come after you.

> Imagine you build an AirBnb like solution limited to Switzerland market. AirBnb will eventually come and eat your lunch.

Not true. Domestic alternatives are often preferred over foreign competition. Two examples that leap to mind are eBay and Uber. Both failed in Japan because people preferred Yahoo! Japan auctions, and the Japanese taxi system. eBay and Uber can't compete there.

To take it down to the niche level, the big national real estate blogs all failed in Houston because they can't compete against HAIF or Swamplot.

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