Live data from Hacker News

Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

nytimes.com

171–180 of 266 posts

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#171
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these "so many developers" you've referenced a dozen times? You've been spending too much time on internet forums listening to rants of the vocal minority. Truth is that most developers are happy and don't need a drastic change, and this can hardly be said about any other profession.

People disagree about open offices. Some people disagree about the option to work from home or hire remote. But it is hard to believe that ANY of us disagree about IP contracts or extended options execution windows. Are you a professional developer? Which of these issues do you think are non-issues?

All of them but the IP contracts thing, which I agree is bullshit. But I've conversely never had a problem redlining that out of every employment contract I've ever been offered. You do hire an attorney and negotiate at contract time right?

I also don't apply to large fortune 500 companies either, since I know the drawbacks are not worth the pay increase.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#172
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? I think this is going to change soon (~10 years). I have seen people with computer science masters degrees working in support positions. I’m not talking about maintenance development, I’m talking about tech support. When I graduated there were maybe 5 people in my class, but now the market is starting to get flooded with CS people. Everyone is hopping on the CS train like…

As somebody who does a lot of interviews: I don't care about a master's degree. Anectodally it has a very low correlation with programming ability.

The market being flooded with CS degrees doesn't scare me, I'll start getting scared when it takes less than 6 months to hire for an entry-level role.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't the reporters that Tronc'd The Tribune Corporation; it was owners that did that. Why am I required to accept the premise that it's labor that's pathologically short-termist, and not management? I reject that premise.

Unions (aka parasites) have a rich history of running their hosts into the ground. Just look at Detroit pensions, or any of the hundreds of municipalities that got fucked by Police/Fire pensions in the subprime crisis (e.g. Vallejo), or the fact that there are bus/train drivers in SF that make $100k+/year. Unions are responsible for running things into the ground far more often than management is. (or they just creat…

What you're describing is the fault of those managing the pensions, specifically that they continually underfunded them while expecting unrealistically high returns.

Detroit? You mean when the city that was in bankruptcy due to a multitude of reasons (decades of mismanagement at both the local and state level, decline of auto sector, white flight, etc.)[0], and the "parasites" as you call them that agreed to a cut in their benefits that was pivotal to the bankruptcy going through?[1] I'd say that example (along with your language) makes it clear there's more ideology than fact involved in your argument...

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit#Contributor... [1]http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-bankruptcy-lesson-unde...

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#174
post #29

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

I will quit from any employer that forces all programmers to negotiate as a unit, because I believe that compensation should be based purely on your individual skills and the market. I also believe that forced collective bargaining is unconstitutional, because it requires people to associate with a group that they don't want to associate with. If a group of people wish to collectively bargain with their employer, tha…

I 100% agree. I'd quit immediately from any job that forced me to join a union. I will not have someone else negotiating for me. I can do that on my own, thank you very much.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#175
post #83
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers…

Could the answer to all those questions be "because the developer made the wrong job choice?"

There are plenty of good developer jobs in silicon valley and the broader tech market. Why work somewhere that treats you poorly?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#176
post #83
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers…

This is list reeks of entitlement.

> If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time?

Most developers don't have any IP to lose. If you have IP to lose then you can find a company that won't ask you to sign onerous contracts.

> If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building?

This is entitlement. Open office saves money. The only option that saves you from wearing headphones is a private office per programmer, which is rare (I think Microsoft still does this). The next common options is cubicles but you still need to wear headphones.

> If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers have stories about working late at night and on weekends to ship features on bogus accelerated schedules they had little hand in setting?

We are well paid to get our work done. Doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, accountants all work as much or even longer hours. Also bad managers create bad schedules and bad cultures, this is across fields.

> If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers accept payment in the form of equity that has to be executed at great expense immediately after leaving the company, and offers no actual guarantee of return after making that investment?

"Great expense" is an exaggeration. Other career paths don't have equity. 80% of the companies I've worked at gave me worthless equity. It's the game that we play. The other 20% made me ~$500k.

> If it's a "seller's market", why are developers forced to move to the most expensive real estate markets in the country to work every day from a particular office when their work can be done more productively from their own home offices?

No one is forced to move anywhere. People want to move here, still.

> If it's a "seller's market", why are so many developers compensated with equity whose terms they're not even allowed to fully understand? And why is it that their common shares are last in line after liquidation preferences and VCs take their rake?

"Not even allowed to understand"? That's a lie. If you work for a shitty company that isn't transparent, you can leave and work for another company that is. That's a seller's market.

Tech workers are generally much happier than other professions. Until that changes, you will never get unions. I hope it never happens, and I will never join a union, and I personally don't know a single programmer that wants to as well. Those that want unions are in the vast minority, and are much louder on forums like Hacker News, but it won't get much traction unless there's another dotcom bust.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily true. If enough people find the union valuable, believe in its aims, and want to participate in it, then the employer can't afford to lose or alienate the union employees, so the union has negotiating power (proportional to the employees that participate). If enough people don't find the union valuable, don't believe in its aims, and don't want to participate in it, then the union will correctly have…

Absolutely. And an employer can choose to only hire union workers, too. I've seen a couple digital agencies that enthusiastically support unionization of their employees. They market to clients that they are a "union shop" and get business from people who support unionization. That's cool! People get to stand up for what they believe in and support businesses that operate according to their beliefs.

Agreed, that's completely reasonable. I just don't support enshrining that in law; that's the point at which it becomes rent-seeking.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#178
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these "so many developers" you've referenced a dozen times? You've been spending too much time on internet forums listening to rants of the vocal minority. Truth is that most developers are happy and don't need a drastic change, and this can hardly be said about any other profession.

People disagree about open offices. Some people disagree about the option to work from home or hire remote. But it is hard to believe that ANY of us disagree about IP contracts or extended options execution windows. Are you a professional developer? Which of these issues do you think are non-issues?

Your IP contracts contention is pretty much hogwash. It's FUD trying to scare people when 99.99% of people aren't affected by it.

I know plenty of developers who worked part-time on their startup at well-known SV companies. Two different sets of coworkers subsequently quit, and each sold their company for ~500M. Another one has gotten several rounds of funding. Another one sold their company to an enterprise company for over $1B, and after the earnout period was over, they formed a new company.

There was nothing "onerous" about any of the contracts these people signed. Meanwhile I haven't heard the opposite at all.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#179
post #98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building? I'm curious, how does your office look like?

https://i.imgur.com/lziE8QA.jpg It's open, but we got it because we loved the building, and we have two conference rooms with doors for calls. (My "desk" is a big couch with a monitor arm mounted to the wall.)

So, hypocrite much?

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its amazing that none of the replies (so far) have pointed out something in the very article that spawned this thread, the status of women and minorities. Literally in the title its noted that the publisher is being put on leave, if you read the article it goes on to note that was because of sexual harrassment and his attitude toward gay men. These are bread and butter union issues.

That isn't a union issue. That is an EEOC / State labor law issue.

what do you thing "labor law" refers to? Union representatives are the very people who often litigate those issues before NLRB and state boards.
Post reply on HN