So You Want to Compete with Steam • Hacker News Board

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#171

Post by mmjaa » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #156

mmjaa wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those package dependency graphs are there to protect you. Having to route around the protection is precisely why you should use a package manger properly - to ensure you don't end up with incompatible/borked installation of key elements. No, I do not think Installers are better than package management. By far, package managers are a key factor in system stability.

Here's a better idea: build the system such that dependency conflicts aren't possible. This is trivial by having a stable base system and otherwise including any application's dependencies in the same directory as the application, which of course means not spreading the application all over the file tree (and thus avoiding another non-existent problem that package managers solve). I know, that's really hard for Linux…

On the contrary, the system you proposed has been implemented many times over the history of Linux .. I can think of GoboLinux as an example, but I think NixOS also does this (may be wrong).

I prefer to just keep the system stable through careful application of well-curated dependency graphs. I've never run into any issue, having used Linux since the very first day, that I couldn't solve by proper application of package manager tools. It seems its easy for newbies and those who don't care enough to get into trouble, but with the right attitude you can easily have systems with years and years of uptime (personal experience).

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#172

Post by Feniks » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #22

kgwxd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one wants a game that requires a "platform", they just don't realize it or care enough to boycott over it.

Gamers love relay servers, NAT punching, automatic updates, matchmaking, friend lists, achievements, community forums, screenshot sharing, streaming and more. Gamers love platforms and what they provide at least as much as they love games themselves.

This. Nobody will ever leave Steam now because they lose their library and social media.

Steam is a lot like Facebook, leaving Steam for the competition would be like deleting years of your life.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#173

Post by Feniks » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

pitaj wrote: post #62

mrhektor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give us a few examples of such businesses? Do customers really switch for marginal improvements?

I can give a few more examples where marginal improvements are not enough, which really boils down to "anything with network effects". - Messaging (WhatsApp, SMS) - Social Media (Facebook)

Valve made Steam literally into a Facebook and WhatsApp for gamers...

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#174

Post by lmm » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #23

FussyZeus wrote: post #3

Mind you the USERS don't even want a lot of Steam's competition. The GOG downloader is...okay? Origin is almost universally hated and every time one of these big companies announces $NewNotSteam the collective community rolls their eyes and groans, dreading the new application that has to be installed, and kept running so it can update, to accomplish the exact same thing that Steam, GOG, Origin, and uPlay already acc…

True. The best thing Steam has ever done was allowing(but not requiring) importing of other games to it. We (as in myself and other users) will voluntarily move to Steam in many cases, just to avoid dealing with whatever download site the game had before, or to get the automatic updates. I've done that with KSP and Elite Dangerous (which has a non-shitty site). And then Steam added VR - a very good implementation at…

I just wish the interface was better for browsing. It's at the point where I'd rather use my browser than their official apps (on both phone and desktop) since at least that way I can open a bunch of recommendations in different tabs.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#175

Post by dataflow » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #170

dataflow wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>apt was telling you something important: you chose to just ignore it because "too confusing" or whatever What "it" are you even talking about? I didn't "choose to ignore" anything . I Marked all Upgrades, clicked Apply, rebooted when it was finished, went to see if there were any more upgrades (there were some), tried to mark & apply them, and was greeted with this error. Apt/Synaptic got me into this broken state a…

> Apt/Synaptic got me into this broken state and couldn't get me out of it. I don't know what story you're reading, but it doesn't seem to be what I've been writing. There was nothing for me to ignore. The error wasn't something I ignored; it was the problem. No. Nothing was broken. The updates you had asked for were about to break something if you installed them. The error message was the package manager stopping yo…

> No. Nothing was broken. The updates you had asked for were about to break something if you installed them. The error message was the package manager stopping you from breaking your system.

Uhm... two things.

First: you see this screenshot? https://askubuntu.com/q/814380 Aside from the actual package names, the bottom part is the same kind of error I got.

See how it says "You have held __broken___ packages"?

See how the top answer is "You can use Aptitude to automatically __fix__ the __broken__ packages"?

Yeah, I interpret that to mean I had broken packages. After updating. Not before.

Oh, and actually, I think it's basically the same kind of situation as in that link. Notice it has >17k views, only 2 answers, and no accepted answer? Yeah, I guess it's not so easy to resolve.

Second: Even if I ignore the above and pretend nothing there is currently broken, a system that cannot be updated is, uhm, broken. So not only was this system just broken, it was doubly broken.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#176

Post by lmm » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

jlebrech wrote: post #112

At some point itch was one of the 99%. Maybe taking on newgrounds or miniclip with a wasm based gaming platform is the niche?

> At some point itch was one of the 99%.

It sounds like itch is more of a lifestyle business than something trying to compete with Steam. And maybe they got started with indies back when that was more of a "blue ocean" (Steam used to be quite anti-indie in the early days).

> Maybe taking on newgrounds or miniclip with a wasm based gaming platform is the niche?

Now that is a good idea.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#177

Post by kuschku » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #153

kuschku wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, some DRM solutions are so bad, they’re worse than simple spyware – for example, Sony’s DRM Rootkit in the past.

DRM isn't even worst for me, I can always use a fresh virtual machine for a game and wipe it out afterwards, but constant Internet connection requirement totally kills it, as I don't have time for games often and these rare moments I play something is usually on a laptop when I'm on vacation out of town with no reliable Internet connection. GOG is great, I can buy, own and play a game whenever I want, wherever I want…

Yes! The most interesting part is that I bought the collectors edition of some Ubisoft games back when they were released, the DRM servers were shut down, and now they won’t work – but I bought them on GOG again, and the GOG version, without DRM, works just fine.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#178

Post by always_good » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:46 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #15

cptskippy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GOG links to your Steam Account and will add games to your library that exist in your Steam Library. It only does this for participating publishers but it's still an effective way to copy your library.

Well, I guess that explains why people like GOG and hate Origin.

Well, GOG also gives you an executable which is rare these days.

You can click and drag it onto your friends' computers for a quick LAN party or to let your girlfriend play alongside you on a airplane.

I never hated Steam more than the time I was on a 18 hour bus ride only to find out Steam wouldn't even launch if it decided it needed to check for updates and you had no internet connection. And there was no way then to play the games you paid for.

If a game you want is available on both GOG and Steam, it's almost irresponsible to get the Steam version.

Oh yeah, on that same bus ride, I found out that .azw-formatted ebooks are locked to a single Kindle. I'm ready for GOG Books.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#179

Post by cptskippy » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #15

cptskippy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GOG links to your Steam Account and will add games to your library that exist in your Steam Library. It only does this for participating publishers but it's still an effective way to copy your library.

Well, I guess that explains why people like GOG and hate Origin.

Origin does it as well but only with EA games. Ubisoft does it for their abomination as well.

Re: So You Want to Compete with Steam

#180

Post by SolarNet » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:03 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #146

SolarNet wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there is your problem. You have the NVIDIA graphics drivers / GL shim "installed". Likely manually because that's the only way they can be used (maybe your distribution did it automatically, but I find that doubtful); you can tell you did it through this simple question: did you use the video card's acceleration at any point? if you did (and I assume you did, since you called it a system by the brand of your vid…

> Well there is your problem. You have the NVIDIA graphics drivers / GL shim "installed". Not in Virtualbox without the guest additions installed. Even with them, it would be a different binary blob. I mean, don't let me get in the way of your profane, unhelpful, and extremely unnecessary rant, but...

I mean. Based off of his posts, he implied he took an image from a physical machine with Nvidia hardware and put it in a virtual machine (on an unspecified system with out guest additions anyway). Are you claiming a disk image of an OS running with Nvidia hardware (that used the acceleration) - with that shim installed - is not going to have that package added anymore if I just stick it in a VM? If so what mechanism would have done that?

As to your effort question. Because I want people to use these systems. As I was writing a detailed response he started writing troll responses (implying the people had read some other story and responded to his for some reason he couldn't fathom; and requiring excessive amounts of evidence) to people offering honest explanations and differing opinions. So I wrote an ending paragraph to what I had that called him out on trolling these people for "tech support" as that as the most charitable way I could view his actions.

It's frustrating when trolls take advantage of people's willingness to help with technical requests as a way to disguise shutting down disagreement by asking questions with large burdens. And then also his changing his story once they respond (often editing his posts without EDIT markers), implying they got everything about his vague statements wrong and that his evidence - his anecdotal setup - disagrees. He has set up a situation where it is easy for his anecdotal evidence to be infallible unless someone can somehow figure out his vague error which is a symptom of his misunderstanding more than it is the system, but his response to attempts to explain the system have been met with his trolling about how they are reading something different. I suspect now that his trollish behavior is a way to defend his argument and incompetence from being challenged.