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Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

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Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#171

Post by mcv »

ramblerman wrote: post #146
somberi wrote: post #114

A book by Jeffrey Sachs, The End of Poverty, argues in favor of this approach where, wealthy individuals or nations help write off debt of poorer countries. The cost of servicing this debt is often crushing enough that no meaningful uplifit is possible from their current poverty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Poverty

Given these regimes often are unstable politically and/or corrupt, what prevents new debt being made and filling the pockets of the leaders? In the Jeffrey Sachs model.

I'm personally of the opinion that anyone knowingly loaning money to corrupt or oppressive regimes is guilty of everything that regime does with that money, and the people can not be expected to repay that loan once they overthrow that regime. (That's not an issue in this particular case; fighting polio is obviously a very worthy cause.)

Of course when the voters knowingly elect corrupt leaders, it's on them. But unfortunately many countries lack a good free press that informs people about the corruption of their leaders. Or they lack a sufficient education for the people to hold their leaders accountable.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#172

Post by mohdmasd »

hiram112 wrote: post #87
labster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read Slashdot 15 years ago, a part of me is shocked to hear anyone wish that Bill Gates stays rich. But don't worry, Bill will be just fine.

Gates is worshipped by most millennials, including the techies. For those of us who've been around for a while - as your reference to Slashdot points out - this can be surprising considering just how hated he was a decade or two ago when Microsoft was in a much different position than they are now. I still have a negative opinion of him, and feel his business practices were extremely negative to the world. But I will…

As a person from a 3rd world country. I'm grateful for Gates and Microsoft, as without them we wouldn't have cheap computing and I and many others wouldn't have the chance to work in this technology business. Look when the hardware companies take control over software, like IBM or Apple, the price of the hardware become really that it becomes a barrier to entry for poor people.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#173

Post by mcv »

labster wrote: post #34
perseusprime11 wrote: post #22

It is amazing to see how Bill Gates immersed himself in his nonprofit work. I hope he stays rich so he can do more of these.

Having read Slashdot 15 years ago, a part of me is shocked to hear anyone wish that Bill Gates stays rich. But don't worry, Bill will be just fine.

Bill Gates is certainly appreciated a lot more now that he's saving lives (and saving future lives by eradicating a disease entirely) rather than forcing Windows down everybody's throats.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#174

Post by Broken_Hippo »

banku_brougham wrote: post #140

A. Nigeria GDP is ~$500B US, sovereign debt is $67B, for debt/GDP ratio of 13%. Nigeria can afford to repay this loan. B. If we fail to eradicate polio, it will be back again someday. The rich world should pay for this with all urgency. Kudos to the Gates. https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nga/ https://dmo.gov.ng/

That doesn't actually tell anyone if they can afford it. What sorts of things does the money go to? Salaries? Food for folks? Other obligations and contracts? Infrastructure? Health care? How much do they have leftover afterwards - can they meet their obligations? How much of that GDP is the government able to capture as a tax? How efficient is tax collection and what is the rate?

The second, though. Fair point.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#175

Post by mcv »

jsmeaton wrote: post #104
hiram112 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates is worshipped by most millennials, including the techies. For those of us who've been around for a while - as your reference to Slashdot points out - this can be surprising considering just how hated he was a decade or two ago when Microsoft was in a much different position than they are now. I still have a negative opinion of him, and feel his business practices were extremely negative to the world. But I will…

Microsoft did some shitty things. But really, the main thing people worry about was bundling a browser with the OS for free 20 years ago . Take a look at some of the shit companies are getting away with these days without a quarter of the hate. You think spending billions of his own money every single year is about cleaning up his image over the anti-trust case? Give me a break.

> Microsoft did some shitty things. But really, the main thing people worry about was bundling a browser with the OS for free 20 years ago.

That's not the thing people worry about, it's the thing Microsoft got convicted for. Stifling competing operating systems is still far worse in my opinion. Although it's true that the legacy of Internet Explorer still haunts the web development industry.

Still, credit where it's due: I really appreciate how he's been using his wealth to fight disease ever since he left Microsoft.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#176

Post by mschuster91 »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #99
mschuster91 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and could be performed by Pakistani government persons as a compromise. Political opponents still can frame anyone associated with "being an US puppet"... and for the chemtrail-lovers with an addition of "they're not vaccinating you, they're putting tiny microchips into you". Do note I didn't make up that last one, it literally flew somewhere over my Facebook feed today.

Do you really wanna try to frame the DNA analysis thing as an insane conspiracy theory? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci... The leaders being suspicious of vaccination efforts is a direct link to this activity, please stop making a cheap "THOSE CRAZY KOOKS BELEIVE ANYTHING" style dismissal.

> Do you really wanna try to frame the DNA analysis thing as an insane conspiracy theory?

No. Of course this is real. What I meant was that even using Pakistani staff would not help to restore trust. The CIA really did the world a service...

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#177

Post by craigsmansion »

rgossiaux wrote: post #132
hiram112 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates is worshipped by most millennials, including the techies. For those of us who've been around for a while - as your reference to Slashdot points out - this can be surprising considering just how hated he was a decade or two ago when Microsoft was in a much different position than they are now. I still have a negative opinion of him, and feel his business practices were extremely negative to the world. But I will…

The thing is, it seems pretty clear-cut to me that the good that Gates has done with his foundation has far exceeded any bad that was done through MS business practices. It's hard for me to take seriously the idea that things like aggressively stifling competing software is the same or larger magnitude as helping millions of people in the developing world with basic things like nutrition, sanitation, and disease prev…

> it seems pretty clear-cut to me

Yes it would. That's the whole point of Public Relations, you, as part of the public, now relate differently to something than you ordinarily would.

> It's hard for me to take seriously the idea that things like aggressively stifling competing software

Well, that is because you are a terrorist, and your ideas are a cancer on society.

The above is basically a post-2000 translation of Microsoft's 90's "stifling competing software" tactics for software development they could not squash outright.

> helping [..] people in the developing world with basic things like nutrition, sanitation, and disease prevention.

By taking away education, self-determination, local opportunities? Yes, not quite as dramatic as people dying, but equally important for long term stable development.

> and I have no shame

No, you have a different frame of reference. I'd say one that lacks a complete historical record.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#178

Post by pizza234 »

mcv wrote: post #171
ramblerman wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given these regimes often are unstable politically and/or corrupt, what prevents new debt being made and filling the pockets of the leaders? In the Jeffrey Sachs model.

I'm personally of the opinion that anyone knowingly loaning money to corrupt or oppressive regimes is guilty of everything that regime does with that money, and the people can not be expected to repay that loan once they overthrow that regime. (That's not an issue in this particular case; fighting polio is obviously a very worthy cause.) Of course when the voters knowingly elect corrupt leaders, it's on them. But unf…

This is populist vision of corruption, which is fair.

However, I am familiar with a "reasonably corrupt" country, where deep hatred of the political class is radical, and I can tell you that the population is as much corrupted as the political class, just, in smaller scale.

I am also familiar with a "reasonably uncorrupted" country, where there isn't a radical hatred towards the political class, and interestingly, the population is significantly more orderly and civil than the former.

In this perspective, I'm very skeptical about the long-term advantages of money transfers when compared to social/infrastructural investments.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Are Paying Off Nigeria's $76M Debt to Japan

#180

Post by mcv »

pizza234 wrote: post #178
mcv wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm personally of the opinion that anyone knowingly loaning money to corrupt or oppressive regimes is guilty of everything that regime does with that money, and the people can not be expected to repay that loan once they overthrow that regime. (That's not an issue in this particular case; fighting polio is obviously a very worthy cause.) Of course when the voters knowingly elect corrupt leaders, it's on them. But unf…

This is populist vision of corruption, which is fair. However, I am familiar with a "reasonably corrupt" country, where deep hatred of the political class is radical, and I can tell you that the population is as much corrupted as the political class, just, in smaller scale. I am also familiar with a "reasonably uncorrupted" country, where there isn't a radical hatred towards the political class, and interestingly, th…

Reality is indeed a lot more complex than the simple black and white picture of my previous comment. I still think that for example the banks who loaned untenable loans to Greece should have taken that loss, rather than have Germany bail them out. In that case, the loans helped keep government mismanagement alive because they allowed the governments to pretend everything was fine. But there are also cases where providing those loans is still the lesser evil.

Still, I do want banks and other moneylenders to take more responsibility for who they're loaning money to, and what's being done with that money. And I think it's unfair to punish people for having lived under a bad government they had no control over. It seems attractive to combine those two goals.

But money spent on improving the lives of the people, through infrastructure, education and medicine, is (almost?) always money well-spent.

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