A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#171

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:49 AM UTC

QuarterReptile wrote: post #163

Dylan16807 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rolling stops What's special about a 4-way stop here? And a rolling stop is good enough to prevent a high-speed collision anyway. > assuming an intersection with a stop sign is almost always a 4-way stop Around here there is a good mix and I don't think that happens. > I prefer the consistency of my home country where every stop is a 2-way stop Well I personally hate going through 2-way-stop intersections that are…

A rolling stop is only good enough to prevent a 'high-speed collision' as judged by people wearing steel armor boxes.

If you don't drop to walking speed, it's not a rolling stop, it's flat-out running the stop sign.

I think we can agree that 4mph is not high speed.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#172

Post by bambax » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #65

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

A roundabout is always the best solution, but it's very expensive. Replacing the "Give Way" by a stop sign costs almost nothing and would probably help a lot, although not for truly reckless drivers.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#173

Post by TomMarius » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

Svip wrote: post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

The drivers shouldn't be punished for bad design of the road. A separate bike road should be constructed.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#174

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:54 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #95

ajmurmann wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe the residential area would either 1. Have no signs resulting in the car to the right getting the right of way 2. One road gets a right of way sign and the other road had to yield. I strongly prefer those setups because they are much more fuel efficient. However, I don't think any of that would work in the UD because it would require real driving classes and tests. I had to drive around for close to 20 hours…

In the urban eastern U.S. apartment buildings usually run right up to the road, except a ~ 1-3meter sidewalk. There isn't sufficient visibility to yield safely; both directions have to come to a stop anyway to check for cross traffic. In the western U.S. (and eastern suburbs) the 4-way stops are largely vestigial; I'd agree that most of them could go away without any loss of safety. Many of the newer neighborhoods ar…

It's also a matter of being used to bicycle traffic, and training. In the Netherlands in a residential area there are probably more bicycles than cars, so every car driver is used to being careful at junctions.

And on average a person needs 38 hours in the car with a professional teacher before they pass the exam, most people don't pass on the first try.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#175

Post by TomMarius » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:54 AM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #159

aidenn0 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least 4-way stops have the same basic rules throughout the US (cars go in order of arrival). 2-way stops do not : Consider the case where the first car to arrive is turning left, but cannot do so due to traffic on the main road. Then a car arrives from the opposite direction going straight. Who is supposed to go first? In some states it's the car that reached the stop sign first, in others it's the car going strai…

When I did my driving lessons many many years ago (UK), I was told that the car turning left would have right of way, because they weren't crossing a carriage way.

That's the same as everywhere else, just on the other side.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#176

Post by bambax » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:55 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #24

bdamm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, a stop sign would solve this, wouldn’t it? Simplist & cheapest solution first. The point about the geometry is that it doesn’t matter at which point the driver can see over the hill and brush; they still won’t see the cyclist.

The UK hates stop signs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom

Thanks for the link but it doesn't say why?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#177

Post by paulie_a » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:56 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #103

ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

For cyclists, roundabouts aren't that much better unless we're given separate lanes. Motorists still tend to blow through roundabouts at speed if they can't see anything coming. From personal experience you can easily navigate a roundabout at 35+ mph.

I've been curious as to why American roundabouts include unnecessary vegetation or a hill in the middle? Why obscure oncoming traffic?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#178

Post by TomMarius » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 8:58 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #165

nraynaud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do exist in Germany.

I don't think so. The literal text from the StVo for the STOP sign (VZ 206) is Ge- oder Verbot 1. Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, muss anhalten und Vorfahrt gewähren. And that strongly implies that at least one of the other streets has the right of way. I've also never seen one.

This is the same in the Czech Republic and the behavior should be the same as if there are no stop signs (except that you have to stop). One of the drivers have to give way to the one on his left and after he goes through, it's all clear.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#179

Post by chillydawg » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 9:00 AM UTC

Piskvorrr wrote: post #160

tc313 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most middle- and upper-class Americans take a driver’s education course (like what you’ve described) prior to receiving their driver’s license. In 10 years it won’t even be necessary because nobody’s going to be driving themselves anyway.

Except pedestrians, bikers, cyclists, etcetera. (Plus you are overestimating the rate of change: I still see horse carriages on the road, 100+ years after the beginning of the car era) And don't get me started on driver ed in PA, USA: in my case, it consisted of a video, signing an drivers' permit application - and voila, go out there and drive (under supervision). I was shocked, shocked .

In the UK you can get a provisional license that allows supervised driving with zero training. It's assumed your supervisor (anyone holding a driving licence for something like 7 years or more) will stop you doing stupid shit.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#180

Post by TomMarius » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 9:01 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #169

phicoh wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. There are no rules for solving this conflict. Because you cannot have two roads that have priority over each other. The Dutch equivalent of a 4 way stop is a raised intersection. Basically an intersection that is one big speed bump. Traffic is forced to slow do…

> In the Netherlands, a 4 four stop would lead to an instant deadlock. I.e., if you reach a stop sign then all traffic on the road you approaching has priority. In a 4 way the same priority rules apply thatwould have applied if there were no stop signs. Obviously the signs have to make clear to everyone that it is a 4 way stop, so that you don't have 4 cars all thinkning they are in a 2 way stop. This is usually done…

The issue is that you can get in a situation with a car on each road. One of the drivers then has to signal the car on his left that he gives up his right of way. This is the same across the EU.