The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#171

Post by fnl » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

Niksko wrote: post #58

fnl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent summary of the core issue. Though I think there should be room for some nature vs. nurture debate. Exclusively attributing this behaviour to our genes seems a bit like the "lazy excuse" to me. I don't see why properly educating ourselves could not lead to a population with improved inter-group empathy (or both, i.e., trigger that evolution at the generic level, too). But yes, maybe changing our educational…

I agree with you and the grandparent partly, but if you take an intersectional view of diversity issues, solving diversity and (as you put it) increasing inter-group empathy are effectively one in the same. For me, the constant rearing of this connection (societal scale problems being solved in tandem by solving other societal scale problems) is what convinces me that ideas of intersectionality are real, but sadly le…

The upside here being that societal evolution seems to be accelerating, just as nearly everything else.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#172

Post by pasquinelli » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

DashRattlesnake wrote: post #146

pasquinelli wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why quibble over the word? you're talking about gender roles, men are supposed to be big and tough and take charge, and womem are supposed to be nurturing and demure and receptive to being taken charge of. it's a model with men in control, patriarchy is a fine word for that. of course if you can't hack your assigned gender role you'll catch shit from those that can. those that can hack their gender role may be men or…

> why quibble over the word? Framing, which is very important in political discussion (e.g. estate tax vs. death tax).

yeah, that's what i suspect.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#173

Post by ThrowAway3456 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #158

digi_owl wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning that #meetoo has become yet another arrow in the SJW quiver...

My personal anecdotal experience is that people that say they are social justice warriors, including my cousin, tend to not engage well in the conversations that facilitates equality by building mutual empathy. It is very hard to meet the person in front of you for whom they express themselves to be when you already made up your mind on who they are before they opened their mouth. Don't get me wrong, I donate the the…

> tend to not engage well in the conversations that facilitates equality by building mutual empathy.

I think you hit the right spot right there. I always baffled me how little empathy hardcore leftist display for other people experience

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#174

Post by OCASM » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #163

dcow wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of level-headed people on the right see things exactly that way too. What kills us, or at least me (I'll identify for the purpose of this argument), is trying to figure out why people "on the left" are so focused on fixing the symptoms by way of "reverse discrimination" (i.e. affirmative action) instead of focusing on ensuring that we continue to see people as unique individuals instead of–what we feel is the…

Why affirmative action? Because if one person takes everything from another person, is it fair to say "you know, that was bad, and it shouldn't have happened, but since that's in the past we should just make sure that we treat both of them the same now"? (I will also note that all the work I see being done to end 'regular' discrimination, a.k.a get to the state where we do see people as individuals and don't act base…

A person is not the same as a group. You want some individuals punished for what other people did. There's no justice there.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#175

Post by asabjorn » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

ThrowAway3456 wrote: post #173

asabjorn wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal anecdotal experience is that people that say they are social justice warriors, including my cousin, tend to not engage well in the conversations that facilitates equality by building mutual empathy. It is very hard to meet the person in front of you for whom they express themselves to be when you already made up your mind on who they are before they opened their mouth. Don't get me wrong, I donate the the…

> tend to not engage well in the conversations that facilitates equality by building mutual empathy. I think you hit the right spot right there. I always baffled me how little empathy hardcore leftist display for other people experience

I think its more about the balkanization of American discourse rather than any particular group doing this on their own. There is an excellent comment by @stupidcar outlining this as part of this thread. Its worth a read.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#176

Post by FLUX-YOU » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:10 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

>Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming?

If I did something cool or make a cool finding, I want to talk about it.

If I'm just gluing stuff together, I'm less interested in talking.

I don't think there's anything special about programming that would affect this -- just being tired after working.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#177

Post by asabjorn » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:11 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #157

asabjorn wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New York times had an interesting take on this in [1]. It argues that what we are seeing now is a resurgence of a victorian view of women as fragile beings that need to be sheltered from any possible harmful situation. This is bullshit; women are as capable as a man of saying no and tactfully pointing out when something emotionally difficult is happening. I think the problem is that we have gone from rightly taki…

I suspect there might be a middle ground between the libertarian/individualist "people are competent, rational agents and you're on your own" and treating people as children. We might, for example, recognize that many people, even competent adults, can be quite bad at dealing with awkward or hostile social situations, and can use help.

I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't teach your kid to walk without risking that they occasionally fall and hurt themselves, and as we grow further these kind of small falls is a natural byproduct of taking risks that leads to growth.

It really sucks when your kid runs in front of a car, but thankfully that is quite rare and there are some simple heuristics that seems to ameliorate most such potential situation.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#178

Post by lr4444lr » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #37

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

No just the opposite, really. I find it harder to articulate words into speech for about 15 - 30 minutes, but the urge to do so is strong, kind of like restoring something "out of balance".

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#179

Post by asabjorn » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:17 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #163

dcow wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of level-headed people on the right see things exactly that way too. What kills us, or at least me (I'll identify for the purpose of this argument), is trying to figure out why people "on the left" are so focused on fixing the symptoms by way of "reverse discrimination" (i.e. affirmative action) instead of focusing on ensuring that we continue to see people as unique individuals instead of–what we feel is the…

Why affirmative action? Because if one person takes everything from another person, is it fair to say "you know, that was bad, and it shouldn't have happened, but since that's in the past we should just make sure that we treat both of them the same now"? (I will also note that all the work I see being done to end 'regular' discrimination, a.k.a get to the state where we do see people as individuals and don't act base…

Don't you think its a bit odd to try to compensate for implicit bias with explicit bias? To me it seems unlikely that bigotry, sexism and racism will be fixed by more of the same.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#180

Post by pasquinelli » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #140

pasquinelli wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why quibble over the word? you're talking about gender roles, men are supposed to be big and tough and take charge, and womem are supposed to be nurturing and demure and receptive to being taken charge of. it's a model with men in control, patriarchy is a fine word for that. of course if you can't hack your assigned gender role you'll catch shit from those that can. those that can hack their gender role may be men or…

It’s not a useful term because it bakes a ton of political ideas into a concept everyone is expected to accept. Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today. It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not. If incarceration and university enrollment…

"Mainly that our society is somehow intelligently designed to put men in charge and that it’s not a mix of biology and random happenstance that got us where we are today."

i don't believe anyone thinks this a or that anyone cares if we're here by accident of history or by intention.

"It also implies that men actually are in charge. Some men may be but the vast majority are not."

of course, and the vast majority of women aren't in charge either, but the topic has been gender roles, not who's in charge. recall that i was questioning the claim that patriarchy is a misnomer because it's bad for men too. the subject at hand is gender roles and gender expectations.

"If incarceration and university enrollment numbers are examined, it might even look like men as a class are the oppressed not the oppressors."

yes, patriarchy is bad for men. and if you look at the number of people murdered by their spouse it also looks pretty oppressive to women. that's the point, patriarchy is oppressive to everyone.