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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#171

Post by marcosdumay »

lostlogin wrote: post #163
marcosdumay wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something like abolitionism has been justified by history as mere common sense, and an absolutely necessary component of a humane society. If taxation by a non-representative government isn't as much common sense as abolitionism, it's only because of a huge amount of propaganda. It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery.

>It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery. Yes it is.

How so?

What is that large difference? Authoritarian states deal with their people basically as if they were their property. They dispose of their lives at will, they dictate what they think and what they work on, they take their labor at will.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#172

Post by mutteraloo »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #164
mutteraloo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here, let me show you why - Man in China sentenced to five years' jail for running VPN https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/22/man-in-china-s... - France couple in China unreachable after Liu Xiaobo tribute - BBC News http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42454865 - China Continues Hunting Down Liu Xiaobo Commemorators, Rounding Up Dissident Writer https://chinachange.org/2017/12/22/china-continues-hunting-d…

Those are risks for people living in mainland China, or expecting to go back there. Anyone with Chinese heritage would do, for the purpose of the local perspective I would like to see.

if you were beaten in your cage whenever you barked, and then later on you were let out of the cage. would you still have hesitation to bark?

btw I understand in Britain, China propaganda has alot of influence there.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#173

Post by yongjik »

mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I object to this line of thoughts.

I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later.

However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I guess you mean well, but in the end that justifies America interfering with other small countries and supporting their dictators, because, hey, otherwise China will be doing the same and at least "our guys" won't be as bad as "their guys". (Just don't look too closely at what our guys are doing.)

More personally, as a South Korean, America having such an opinion basically means my country is forced to "choose side", hurting our economy and destabilizing military balance in East Asia. The only benefactors are military complexes of China and the US.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#174

Post by lostlogin »

narrator wrote: post #158
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

The Chinese haven't attacked anyone in a long time. Seriously. I think they are pioneering new forms of social organization that are different than the western system and might even be better on the whole for the average individual who ignores historical events that took place more than 25 years ago. How many times has the economist predicted a economic crisis in China since 1990 and they just keep on growing?

Have a read about organ harvesting. They have been forcibly harvested from prisoners and in large numbers. China has pledged to stop doing it as of this year. I guess we will see. https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtm...

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#175

Post by nate_meurer »

paulmd wrote: post #168
nate_meurer wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the death penalty is a disgrace, but it's not comparable to things like Tianamen Square. Not even remotely. The death penalty is administered within a legal framework that is designed (nominally at least) to be transparent and afford due process. The implementation is sometimes flawed to the point of absurdity, but the American people largely know this and are free to criticize and debate it without fear of punis…

> The death penalty is administered within a legal framework that is designed (nominally at least) to be transparent and afford due process I'm sure China's system has some high-minded "nominal" goals too. Why should we give the US a pass for its practical outcomes while holding China to a higher standard? Remember, for all that talk about how horrible China is, the US imprisons many times more people per-capita. (I…

I agree! The critical difference, of course, being that if we lived in China we'd quite likely be imprisoned (or worse) for simply talking about this.

In contrast, as an American, I can lend out my copy of "The New Jim Crow" and rant and rave in public about how unjust the American justice system truly is, and never once fear punishment by my government. It's never once entered my mind.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#177

Post by mutteraloo »

yongjik wrote: post #173
mutteraloo wrote: post #35

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

I object to this line of thoughts. I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I gues…

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#178

Post by [deleted] »

tw04 wrote: post #71
fastball wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple things to unpack here: Firstly, I'm not sure we're reading the same article, but by my summary count, the total death toll for all combined US war crimes detailed in that article isn't much more than 10,000. Next, the veracity of some of those claims is questionable at best. Finally, it should be noted that the Tiananmen Square protests, were, in fact, protests. This was not an action against civilians durin…

It's not as if the US ever killed off a bunch of innocent people outside of war, and still ignores them when it doesn't suit their interests (see keystone XL pipeline): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigeno...

[deleted]

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#179

Post by ryanmarsh »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #42
jbooth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever see the shock and awe videos of Baghdad? That our government approvingly worked with cable news to make sure everyone saw it? For an operation very much not endorsed by the UN or international community? Good thing that's not a war crime, though.

Shock and awe was a brief bombing campaign that hit military and administrative buildings late at night when they were empty. I saw the buildings. They were not apartment blocks. If anyone died in that campaign it was purely by accident.

Go ahead, downvote me. I was there mother fuckers.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#180

Post by yongjik »

mutteraloo wrote: post #177
yongjik wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to this line of thoughts. I hope I don't sound like a China apologist: the Chinese government has done a terrible crime, and it's a shame that not enough Chinese people are demanding justice, and sooner or later they will have to look back and recognize what happened, hopefully sooner rather than later. However, packaging that as "the threat of China" is a self-serving narrative that will harm people. I gues…

you do realize that China is the only reason North Korea is still operating, right? The North Korea that threatens your home country and brutalizes many of your relatives in North Korea?

You do realize North Korea "not operating" means either a civil war between military factions with access to nuclear weapons, or South Korean/American forces dragged into a military operation right up the nose of China? So you would rather prefer that my relatives die in fire?

See, this is what I mean when I say I object to such reasoning. People are so bold, they're always willing to sacrifice other people's lives to defend freedom.

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