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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#171

Post by KozmoNau7 »

mrwong wrote: post #166
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not in any way imply that a strict top-controlled planned economy system like in the USSR was better. I also did not imply that the current state of chaos in Venezuela is preferable (and that happened due to a bone-headed reliance on a single big export product, which completely collapsed when global oil prices crashed). I'll amend my statement to "privatization of a functional public system, ostensibly to prov…

God your socialist are aweful, everytime that fails you guys point it to the random single event that made that whole thing fail and act as if that were some unqie exception. “... single bone headed reliance...”

Please enlighten us on how the chaos in Venezuela wasn't caused by over-reliance on oil and widespread corruption.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#172

Post by KozmoNau7 »

mrwong wrote: post #167
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not in any way imply that a strict top-controlled planned economy system like in the USSR was better. I also did not imply that the current state of chaos in Venezuela is preferable (and that happened due to a bone-headed reliance on a single big export product, which completely collapsed when global oil prices crashed). I'll amend my statement to "privatization of a functional public system, ostensibly to prov…

The railroad sucks because its an old outdated businessmodel when it comes to personal transport. Only railroadbusiness that make sense is Heave industries and inner city subways. Everything else ist just romantazied waste full bs. So of course these kind if business can only be sustained by wasteful public spending.

What are you even on about? Rail transport is one of the absolute cheapest forms of transport per passenger mile and capacity per hour.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#173

Post by niij »

drdaeman wrote: post #135
samat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider you’ve lost all your devices and logged in to a service. It either can decipher your history or it can’t. And if it can (which is convinient) - why have a e2e in the first place?

Revoke the key, so the lost device won't be able to read the new messages. What the device already knows - it just can't be helped. This is irrelevant to E2E or even PFS. Basically, it's about message archive security - either it's leaked (and no amount of encryption and authentication would help) or not. E2E systems can sync message history - by mutually verifying device keys and then propagating data across such tr…

>And if all devices (including possible server-kept archive private key derivation passphrase) are lost, then message history is gone.

If a server can decrypt your messages, then it's not really E2E anymore, is it?

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#174

Post by baybal2 »

eps wrote: post #149
baybal2 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the very end of the article, there are photos of the Telegraph LLC, the company behind Telegram, just a floor below the currently government owned VKontakte

Re: servers - there are several paragraphs in the middle detailing Telegram's DC move to London. So your server farm claim is still unconfirmed. Re: the office - from what I gather, they maintain a shell company in Russia that sits in the former Telegram office. The photo merely shows that they may have a large office space , which may have been inherited by this company from their VK split for all we know. I really…

Their office is in St. Petersburg, not Moscow. Googling for a few minutes will give you plenty of evidence that they do.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#175

Post by thriftwy »

Vinnl wrote: post #169
thriftwy wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they do benefit from this. I fail to see how it converts into an obligation for me. I care about X. X would like to recieve money backed by my payments. Does that mean I owe them those payments? How well do Ponzi schemes play out in practice?

There is no inherent obligation. Where I'm from, though, we've voted for governments that make it one.

So you thrown bad money towards Ponzi scheme. Can I now stop throwing good money towards it?

Note that "we voted to confiscate your assets" is NOT a valid vote. "No taxation without representation" fails where we have no hope to recover what we've wasted here.

Or, as you seem to be suggesting, we're just waiting for a big crash while making sure it will be real big, while crunching in process.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#176

Post by thriftwy »

Vinnl wrote: post #170
ekianjo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already know that b) is not going to work in practice, because of the population curve. So, there's that. Why should you pay for something you will never get yourself?

Because of a), and because we don't have an alternative for b) yet, but whatever we might come up with might be bootstrapped with these payments.

How can we bootstrap anything with those payments, where they all go to the retired already? Can't spend same payments twice. And the balance isn't becoming better here.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#177

Post by Vinnl »

thriftwy wrote: post #176
Vinnl wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of a), and because we don't have an alternative for b) yet, but whatever we might come up with might be bootstrapped with these payments.

How can we bootstrap anything with those payments, where they all go to the retired already? Can't spend same payments twice. And the balance isn't becoming better here.

They don't all go to the retired (at least, not where I'm from). A lot of it is reinvested in order to save for future retirements.

But yes, the bootstrapping is still an interesting problem.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#178

Post by Vinnl »

thriftwy wrote: post #175
Vinnl wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no inherent obligation. Where I'm from, though, we've voted for governments that make it one.

So you thrown bad money towards Ponzi scheme. Can I now stop throwing good money towards it? Note that "we voted to confiscate your assets" is NOT a valid vote. "No taxation without representation" fails where we have no hope to recover what we've wasted here. Or, as you seem to be suggesting, we're just waiting for a big crash while making sure it will be real big, while crunching in process.

Not if you're from my country, because it's the law for you to throw money to it.

But yes, it appears we're waiting for a big crash, which is likely the result of those who __are__ likely to profit from it represent a substantive portion of the electorate, resulting in our leaders being reluctant in finding other/better systems.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#179

Post by drdaeman »

niij wrote: post #173
drdaeman wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revoke the key, so the lost device won't be able to read the new messages. What the device already knows - it just can't be helped. This is irrelevant to E2E or even PFS. Basically, it's about message archive security - either it's leaked (and no amount of encryption and authentication would help) or not. E2E systems can sync message history - by mutually verifying device keys and then propagating data across such tr…

>And if all devices (including possible server-kept archive private key derivation passphrase) are lost, then message history is gone. If a server can decrypt your messages, then it's not really E2E anymore, is it?

I believe E2E means that data is encrypted and decrypted on endpoints and nothing else. It doesn't imply how the keys are produced or who else knows the keys.

But I was thinking about a scheme, where the key is encrypted with a passphrase (that user's ought to remember) and kept on server. You fetch the blob, decrypt it (server can't), get the key and thus are able to decrypt the existing data (message archive).

This lowers security, but adds a significant convenience of being able to recover history if the only device is broken or lost. Which may be important for casual users.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#180

Post by alien2003 »

Telegram is FSB's spyware. Their main office is in St. Petersburg and telegrams are still not blocked in Russia but in Russian television they always talk about ducking crazy super duper Telegram security and how difficult is to beat for FSB
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