Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

scientificamerican.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 232 posts

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#171

Post by Houshalter »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #169
Gargoyle wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's an HN thread on IQ, you can count on two things: 1. There will be a number of comments saying IQ is outright meaningless. 2. There will be a comment saying Feynman only had an IQ of whatever it was. Never fails. Anyway, as I've said here before, Feynman's books are primarily collections of stories. What's presented in them was selected to maximize the impact and entertainment value of the story. And Feyn…

To be perfectly clear, I am not saying IQ scores are completely meaningless. I am saying they probably do not measure some sort of objective, DNA-based trait of "smarts". You cannot separate these scores from a very long list of environmental factors and I am very leery of the mental model we have that people who test well are some sort of innately superior beings rather than people who have benefited more than avera…

Stop putting moral judgements on scientific facts. Either IQ measures intelligence or it doesn't. And there is an enormous amount of research supporting the former. And very little to support your assertion that it's "just schooling" or whatever. In fact there's mounting evidence that schooling affects outcomes a lot less than most people believe, e.g. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/19/teachers-much-more-than...

Look, no one is saying your individual IQ test is the only thing that matters. There is random error on tests, and it's not like intelligence is the only thing that matters in a person. But if you go around denying that it exists at all, you are just spreading pseudoscience.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#172

Post by DoreenMichele »

Houshalter wrote: post #168
DoreenMichele wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matric... Wikipedia says that people with autism and asperger's outperform other people on Raven's tests. Most people view ASD individuals as seriously cognitively impaired and they are often seen as low IQ, so I have trouble with your assertion. It suggests that people the world sees as highly impaired whose lives typically are harder than average are smarter tha…

>Most people view ASD individuals as seriously cognitively impaired and they are often seen as low IQ, so I have trouble with your assertion. Popular culture stereotypes autists as being highly intelligent.

https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/is-autism-associa...

The very existence of autism calls into question our historical conceptualization of intelligence and IQ testing.

I have two ASD sons. They are very bright. They also have some serious personal struggles.

So, which is it? Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else? Because this latest twist in the conversation seems just ridiculous.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#173

Post by LV-426 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #152
croon wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree on your overall point that you should be using your mind for something productive rather than showing off, I have to note that getting degrees has nothing (edit: very little) to do with IQ. IQ might help you understand a subject better, but being focused, studying, planning, and having the motivation is what gets you degrees.

I am medically handicapped and was also suicidal throughout high school. I had better test scores in high school than grades. I missed a lot of school and often failed to do homework. In most cases, past grades are a better predictor of future grades than test scores. But college was physically easier for me because I had more control over my schedule and was thus better able to accommodate my handicap. So my grades…

> But I will note that the comment you replied to said nothing about IQ. I only spoke of a need for validation and that's it. I was quite careful to not suggest it had anything to do with intelligence or competence.

What did you mean by "smarts", if not "intelligence", "competence" or "IQ"?

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#174

Post by [deleted] »

Houshalter wrote: post #171
DoreenMichele wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be perfectly clear, I am not saying IQ scores are completely meaningless. I am saying they probably do not measure some sort of objective, DNA-based trait of "smarts". You cannot separate these scores from a very long list of environmental factors and I am very leery of the mental model we have that people who test well are some sort of innately superior beings rather than people who have benefited more than avera…

Stop putting moral judgements on scientific facts. Either IQ measures intelligence or it doesn't. And there is an enormous amount of research supporting the former. And very little to support your assertion that it's "just schooling" or whatever. In fact there's mounting evidence that schooling affects outcomes a lot less than most people believe, e.g. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/19/teachers-much-more-than... L…

[deleted]

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#175

Post by orangecat »

croon wrote: post #145
DoreenMichele wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never applied to Mensa. A cousin of mine (that I barely knew) was in it. He encouraged me to apply on the theory that they had a small scholarship that would help me return to college. He felt my SAT scores would qualify me. I have seen some discussions on the internet that fit with your hypothesis that many people join Mensa to have their smarts validated. There are other ways to validate that, like getting additi…

While I agree on your overall point that you should be using your mind for something productive rather than showing off, I have to note that getting degrees has nothing (edit: very little) to do with IQ. IQ might help you understand a subject better, but being focused, studying, planning, and having the motivation is what gets you degrees.

I have to note that getting degrees has nothing (edit: very little) to do with IQ.

That's just not true, even with the edit. Certainly high intelligence by itself isn't sufficient, but you're not going to find many physics PhDs with a 90 IQ.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#176

Post by DoreenMichele »

LV-426 wrote: post #173
DoreenMichele wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am medically handicapped and was also suicidal throughout high school. I had better test scores in high school than grades. I missed a lot of school and often failed to do homework. In most cases, past grades are a better predictor of future grades than test scores. But college was physically easier for me because I had more control over my schedule and was thus better able to accommodate my handicap. So my grades…

> But I will note that the comment you replied to said nothing about IQ. I only spoke of a need for validation and that's it. I was quite careful to not suggest it had anything to do with intelligence or competence. What did you mean by " smarts ", if not "intelligence", "competence" or "IQ"?

"The king's stamp does not make the gold good."

An organization declaring you to be one of the smart people may feel good, but it doesn't make it true. And it is generally more useful if the people stamping off on the idea that you are smart are issuing a degree in the process.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#177

Post by Bertio »

brookside wrote: post #102
taneq wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, my dad took us to get tested at one point when we were in school, iirc I was ~130. Low enough to still be pretty common, high enough to feel the pressure to do something with it. Then again, when I got to uni I was classed with people who scored way higher than I did and they were... I dunno, "intelligent" but not "smart". I didn't see any correlation between entry exam scores and subsequent performance.

I think kids get such scores when they are ahead of their age in areas of mental development. I think in my case, because of attentive parents who had me reading early, etc. As I got older I realized I'm not actually smarter than other people, I was just a little ahead, and the false belief that I am somehow exceptionally clever was damaging in a number of ways.

As a high school dropout living in the blue collar world after some rough time as a teen on the street, having left home at 15, I'd long forgotten about the potential I once had in grade school. Years later when I decided to go back to school and get a degree, I entered the CS program. Despite great performance I carried the delusion that I was not nearly as smart as everyone else. I was also often the only woman in the class and deep down believed that I was inferior. I had accepted that hard work was my only real tool for success. But I truly loved the material and chose to get a double major in Math. I was pretty isolated from my peers and was completely unaware to what degree I was outperforming them. It wasn't for several years out in the workforce where I actually started to realize I was actually alright in the intelligence department and I wasn't just fooling everyone (although I still have my doubts some days...). Nowadays, I frequently find myself in disbelief of where I am now, what my career is, what I get paid and what my life is like compared to where I was headed many years ago.

My brother on the other hand was treated like a genius from an early age and was never really forced to work hard. Even when he failed, there was reasoning that he was just too gifted and he was bored and never really had to learn how to truly apply himself or grow. My dad gave him a job and eventually gave him his company when he retired that he ran into the ground. He lived with my parents until he was over 30 and now approaching 50 he still struggles with keeping a job.

I think about the two of us and how we were both led astray by our adults thinking they already knew what we were capable of. What you say about your experience being damaging really resonates to me even if I'm coming from the opposite side of things. I feel like I got extremely lucky that my particular set of experiences even if they were tough to live through allowed me to land on my feet.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#178

Post by Houshalter »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172
Houshalter wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people view ASD individuals as seriously cognitively impaired and they are often seen as low IQ, so I have trouble with your assertion. Popular culture stereotypes autists as being highly intelligent.

https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/is-autism-associa... The very existence of autism calls into question our historical conceptualization of intelligence and IQ testing. I have two ASD sons. They are very bright. They also have some serious personal struggles. So, which is it? Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else? Because this latest twist in the conversation seems just ridicul…

I have no idea what you think this is supposed to prove. People with a weird brain condition have weird results on brain tests?

>Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else?

It's an Intelligence Quotient. It measures intelligence. No one said anything about "general competence", whatever that even means. I imagine intelligence is an important part of "general competence" though.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#179

Post by DoreenMichele »

Houshalter wrote: post #178
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/is-autism-associa... The very existence of autism calls into question our historical conceptualization of intelligence and IQ testing. I have two ASD sons. They are very bright. They also have some serious personal struggles. So, which is it? Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else? Because this latest twist in the conversation seems just ridicul…

I have no idea what you think this is supposed to prove. People with a weird brain condition have weird results on brain tests? >Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else? It's an Intelligence Quotient . It measures intelligence. No one said anything about "general competence", whatever that even means. I imagine intelligence is an important part of "general competence" though.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15889035

You are contradicting yourself.

Re: Superior IQs associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests

#180

Post by Houshalter »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #179
Houshalter wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what you think this is supposed to prove. People with a weird brain condition have weird results on brain tests? >Does IQ measure general competence or does it measure something else? It's an Intelligence Quotient . It measures intelligence. No one said anything about "general competence", whatever that even means. I imagine intelligence is an important part of "general competence" though.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15889035 You are contradicting yourself.

No, I'm not.
Post reply on HN