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How slot machines are designed to be addictive

theguardian.com

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Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#171

Post by kaffeemitsahne »

imroot wrote: post #67
Hasz wrote: post #17

I recently read an excellent book about this subject exactly -- Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas, by Natasha Dow Schüll. It has research from every angle -- former addicts, the casinos, current addicts, game programmers, game manufacturers, anyone who has a hand in the industry. It's incredibly comprehensive, and definitely worth a look, if a bit long.

It pains me to say this, but, back when "Gamification" was a major growth tool, I read this book so that I could identify potential avenues for "gamify-ing" the product that I was working on, but, the stories of the addicts are really what drove me away from even considering that for what I was working on. I'll +1 on it being a really comprehensive book.

The book "Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products" is exactly that. Minus the cautionary tales, I guess (haven't read it).

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#172

Post by majos »

joezydeco wrote: post #169
hollander wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a mechanical slot machine I can understand the reel thing. But with electronic screens, software making up reels, how do I know that the software does not fool me even more? Take the given example with first slot 1/16, second 1/32 and third 1/44 chance of winning big. Now assume the generated numbers are really random, and that day or week the machine has given two big prices. Then a third big number combination…

From a USA point of view: it's highly regulated at the state level. State gaming commissions hire third-party labs to audit the mathematics and software to make sure everything matches what the manufacturer says it does. Things like changing the odds dynamically is never allowed. The casino may load up a new program with different odds or mechanics, but for any particular game the odds must match what is published to…

> From a USA point of view: it's highly regulated at the state level. State gaming commissions hire third-party labs to audit the mathematics and software to make sure everything matches what the manufacturer says it does.

Can you point me to more info on this "auditing" process? For all the recent coverage of "algorithmic fairness" (an area where I do some research) I'm not aware of any other usecases where mandatory software audits are common, so this is interesting. Who are these labs?

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#173

Post by ConceptJunkie »

Retric wrote: post #167
greggarious wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is reasonable when machines list a maximum reward of say 10,000$ and then it says has someone win 2000x I disagree. It should be trivial to code a machine to not display a number greater then it's maximum bet. Forcing slot makers to honor their machine's output will incentivize them to better bug test their products.

Memory gets randomly corrupted over time. So, you can make things unlikely, but impossible is more difficult than you migh think. Having shat said, some penalties for this is reasonable. Aka, treat it as a maximum payout.

If we could send a space probe billions of miles away and have it still work, despite being 40-year-old technology, I think we can make a robust system to run a slot machine without having to spend astronomical figures. But that's just me.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#174

Post by joezydeco »

majos wrote: post #172
joezydeco wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a USA point of view: it's highly regulated at the state level. State gaming commissions hire third-party labs to audit the mathematics and software to make sure everything matches what the manufacturer says it does. Things like changing the odds dynamically is never allowed. The casino may load up a new program with different odds or mechanics, but for any particular game the odds must match what is published to…

> From a USA point of view: it's highly regulated at the state level. State gaming commissions hire third-party labs to audit the mathematics and software to make sure everything matches what the manufacturer says it does. Can you point me to more info on this "auditing" process? For all the recent coverage of "algorithmic fairness" (an area where I do some research) I'm not aware of any other usecases where mandator…

One of the most popular labs in this line of work is GLI (Gaming Laboratories International)

http://www.gaminglabs.com/

Here's a doc from their site about RNG testing:

http://www.gaminglabs.com/pdfs/GLI%20Comp%20Sub%20Req%20V1.2...

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#175

Post by sigi45 »

freeloop3 wrote: post #135
sigi45 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No people don't enjoy it. If they do its your fault, that they enjoy sitting in front of a machine and pressing a button. You are part of the problem. I really mean this. You are similar to a drug dealer, weapons producer or similar people. You are part of an Industrie no one needs and makes our society a little bit less good every day. And yes everyone taking part in one way or another is responsible for it.

There are some people, you know, that don't have the physical ability to do much else to get the same amount of entertainment in their lives. Casinos are a boon to seniors, giving them a chance to go somewhere where they can actually enjoy themselves with worrying too much. Jesus, how many sharp edges to we have to round over to make sure that adults live a "safe" life, according to your standards?

Just to be clear: i was never in a casino before until this year when i went to Canada (i'm from germany).

I was always under the assumption, that a casino is fun. Something you don't do that often, you go there to loose money and eat and drink and see people and have a little fun.

When you play poker in a casino, that is somehow okayisch but on an edge: The casino gets a fair share for providing a table and a dealer. Fair i think because i had to pay 10% exchange fee or something similiar. Its fine.

But than i went to a table and i lost my money way way way faster than i could grasp. Srsly fast. Like wtf fast. 100$ gone in 15 minutes. Why? Small blind was small, big blind was only 2 dollars but everyone played for 5 dollars min. Seeing the flop 5$. The dealer is quick like hell. One round doesn't take long.

I went to the casino with a clear limit. I didn't change the limit, i didn't increase it, i didn't went back to an AT&T. But with a reasonble limit in place, you don't have fun in a casino for long. No way. Loosing 100$ i worked my ass of in under an hour? No srysl no. This is not fun and not entertainment. It is loosing money with the illusion that you could beat someone on that table and you can't.

You only can when you extercise when you do it as a job or when you have a gambling addiction and spend your hard earned money every money there and just losing losing losing.

Now back to the slot machines: Those are even more fucked up. I really mean fucked up. I thought you can play with them like different subgames, a little bit of reaction or choses but there non. And i mean non.

0 Zero non.

You have one button to press (which is more or less your 'losing money button') and another row of buttons to increase the amount you are 'betting'.

Wtf?

There is no emotional value in sitting in front of a slot machine, pressing a button and losing money. Yes everything else, getting fucking drunk in a bar next door and pucking the shit out of you or just sitting at home and watching tv has more value to live than sitting in front of a digital machine and pressing a button.

And no that has nothing to do with 'save' life. and it has nothing to do with 'enjoying themselves'.

Casino work because people get addicted. Casinos work because they have enough audiance arround it which gives the addicted people the feeling that they are not alone. But thats it. And its horrible.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#176

Post by sigi45 »

jjawssd wrote: post #138
sigi45 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No people don't enjoy it. If they do its your fault, that they enjoy sitting in front of a machine and pressing a button. You are part of the problem. I really mean this. You are similar to a drug dealer, weapons producer or similar people. You are part of an Industrie no one needs and makes our society a little bit less good every day. And yes everyone taking part in one way or another is responsible for it.

Tell us more about your ideal society where everything is harmless.

My live is good, its also a harmless live. Not sure what your problem is.

For a more detailed comment, see my answer to the comment above you.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#177

Post by lsmarigo »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #168
lsmarigo wrote: post #111

Video game industry is pushing these tactics to new heights with loot box gamification, even better the target consumers are young, mentally underdeveloped children who are much easier to addict to gambling. China/Japan have regulated these practices for years already (with minimal effectiveness because money wins and publishers have found loopholes), but at least they're trying. Over here we just let companies go to…

My guess is lot of us adults don't really see much of it, cause it's not targeted at us. I see the regular "come to hopping awesome great casino" ads on tv/radio/internet. My thoughts - thats where people go to lose money. But these loot boxes, I had to research what this was referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_box And after reading how they're used, yeah, thats like years ago when I played and bought Ma…

you're absolutely right you can trace the roots of this back to Magic and if you want to go further back Baseball cards. It was fairly innocent back then, with the advent of gaming technology and research into dopamine-releasing mechanics/skinner boxes it's reached insidious levels.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#178

Post by Retric »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #173
Retric wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memory gets randomly corrupted over time. So, you can make things unlikely, but impossible is more difficult than you migh think. Having shat said, some penalties for this is reasonable. Aka, treat it as a maximum payout.

If we could send a space probe billions of miles away and have it still work, despite being 40-year-old technology, I think we can make a robust system to run a slot machine without having to spend astronomical figures. But that's just me.

Many probes fail, but we care about success.

On the other hand with slot machines ~999,990 work 'just fine' and we care about the 10 that fail at some point.

Each machine may be used ~100 times an hour for 20 years. Odd crap is going to happen.

That said someone probably messed up at some point. However, perfection is never going to happen.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#179

Post by kerbalspacepro »

deathhand wrote: post #119
Synaesthesia wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same effect, novelty which presents at random is highly addictive, creating compulsive behaviour of constant checking. (Guilty over here too)

I think being an information junkie is more of the reason of HN addiction.

If you're a human being in the normal (+- 3 standard deviations) bands of brain functionality, you're an information junkie, but people have different information diets/highs.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#180

Post by hermanhermitage »

DonHopkins wrote: post #152
hermanhermitage wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2) The employees are not gambling, so they are not exposed to the addictive product. 3) Incorrect. Standalone progressives and linked progressives adjust the payout based on the outcome of previous games. Either the jackpot is awarded and reset, or the increment is added and will be available as a future payout. Furthermore some markets have had a history of compensators (eg fruit machine markets / awp).

>Furthermore some markets have had a history of compensators (eg fruit machine markets / awp). What do you mean by "compensators" and "fruit machine markets / awp", please? Another dumb question I was too embarrassed to ask in a real casino, but everybody in the gambling industry probably already knows: I've never read a slot machine "instruction manual", and the instructions on the slot machines in Amsterdam are in…

A 'Compensator' is an element that dynamically controls the payout typically based on the current 'hold'. The hold being the amount of money in the machine.

If I recall 'Barcrest' has a range of patents covering compensators. (For those interested).

AWP is Amusement with Prize(s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusement_with_prize

Not sure about the Dutch market. I recall a game shipping to Netherlands called 'Golden Goals', so I believe they have class 3 gaming machines (at least in Casinos?).

Its possible the machine you are talking about has the BET (per line) set high, so that your current CREDIT amount is insuffient to activate all the available LINES. On most modern video slots there is a BET per line, a possible ANTEBET a number of LINES to wager on. The total STAKE = BET * LINE + ANTEBET. The LINE lights (or BET lights in USA) will illuminate based on which valid bets.

My advice is press the collect button, take your money and buy yourself a drink :) Gaming machines work on 'Negative Compound Interest' - thats all you need to know. If you keep re-'investing' you will only end up with a $0 balance.

Finally every Jurisdiction typically operates on different rules. These rules are normally publically available.

For instance NSW Australia has their rules outlined at: http://www.liquorandgaming.nsw.gov.au/Pages/gaming/gaming-ma...

This covers the national standards that are generally applicable to machines in Australia and New Zealand, and then variations and specializations for the particular market of NSW - management protocols, jackpot behaviour, prohibited features etc.

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