Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards • Hacker News Board

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#171

Post by BlackjackCF » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

nrclark wrote: post #5

My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible. My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them. Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers. Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an extern…

> Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys?

I find functional keys nice, but not necessary. I also just remapped ESC to capslock since I never use capslock anyway.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#172

Post by gol706 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had my top case replaced a month ago after my 'w' key started sticking down off and on. I could swear I felt one of the keys on my new case stick once, but it hasn't happend again.

I usually don't buy Apple Care, but as I look at the 1 year mark approach, I'm thinking I may need to suck it up and buy it if the alternative is a $400-700 top case replacement ever few months on my dime until Apple decides to issue an extended warranty. Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had.

On the plus side, ever time they replace the keyboard, you get a brand new battery and new USB-C connectors (which I'm also paranoid are going to have longevity issues).

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#173

Post by BlackjackCF » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

Yetanfou wrote: post #79

saurik wrote: post #21

Based on the title I assumed that this person was going to be complaining about joint damage due to the low key travel. This keyboard on my 12" MacBook is so bad that between having to get the top case replaced to fix broken keys (when as stated in the article, careful blowing didn't work and trying to replace the keys caused them to break) and my fingers feeing like they have aged many years from the poor ergonomics…

The solution seems clear to me: you don't need to stop using laptops, you need to switch to another brand. There are plenty of laptops (or notebooks or whatever you prefer to call the things) with keyboards which work by manufacturers who put function over form instead of the other way around. The only snag you might hit is if you're stuck - emotionally or otherwise - to a given operating system but even that is solv…

I'm really sad because I really like Apple hardware. I would still get the newest line of MBP even if I hate the keys because it'll still be lightyears ahead in terms of hardware sturdiness and feel.

I bought a XPS 15" since I didn't want to dish out for a new Macbook. It's running Elementary OS. I like it well enough, but it has a lot of trouble handling HiDPI that requires constant tweaking.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#174

Post by sf_rob » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

pudo wrote: post #14

This, so much. Plus, call me clumsy, but the number of times I have accidentally triggered one of the magic bar buttons is beyond count. In everyday use, it often feels like my computer just randomly mutes system audio or locks the display (I had to get rid of the Siri button, it's incredibly annoying). All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because the ESC button is gone...

My gripe is with play/pause. I like having the key but don't want iTunes to be open on an accidental press.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#175

Post by tomxor » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

dillondoyle wrote: post #13

nrclark wrote: post #5

My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible. My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them. Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers. Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an extern…

My biggest beaf with the TouchBar: volume takes two clicks! Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide. It would be so easy to allow custom button to add back on (and maybe there is that I haven't been able to find?) I also accidentally 'touch my pinky finger…

>Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide.

Hah, You couldn't make this stuff up... GUIs were borne out of a hatred of highly context based keyboard behaviour (VI, Xerox Parc), now Apple go full circle and revert to context hell by combining a keyboard with a touchscreen GUI. Goodbye Apple, it was nice knowing you.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#176

Post by r-s » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

Have a 2017 MPB I got for work, I pretty much only run it in closed clamshell mode. If I need to actually be type something, I will pull out a $500 acer laptop from 5 years ago running linux because it is much nicer to type on.

If I actually paid for the machine I would be pretty mad. The keyboard misses clicks and the lack of the escape key still bothers me.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#177

Post by raesene6 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #153

nrclark wrote: post #5

My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible. My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them. Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers. Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an extern…

What you are describing is a broken or dirty keyboard. First of all, the new MBP requires compressed air for cleaning under the keys. If that doesn't work, they will repair it under warranty.

if a keyboard requires compressed air cleaning to function, that sounds like a design defect to me.

I've used PC keyboards for ~25 years now and I've never had one that would break if not treated ...

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#178

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

lghh wrote: post #165

danpalmer wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys? a) I'm a developer, I do not use traditional function keys and would much rather have media keys, etc. b) This laptop is not just for programmers. It is designed for many people, many of whom could benefit significantly (applications in video/music editing look very useful).

> a) I'm a developer, I do not use traditional function keys and would much rather have media keys, etc. Function keys also served as media keys.

True, but the touchbar is much better at that specific role. It also opens up different forms of interaction for other applications.

The terminal, for instance, has an instant man page key. This is kind of cool. A tiling window manager could have window management special keys. I have a very nice keyboard on my desk at home with, a glorious Unicomp PC122 with 24 function keys. I love it, but I need to confess I never used that many function keys. Ever.

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#179

Post by bitexploder » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

jankotek wrote: post #11

I have Dell XPS 13. When keyboard broke (probably my fault), technician come to my house next day and replaced it in front of me. For free, as part of basic warranty. I was on holiday in other country...

Dell doesn't produce the most beautiful laptops, but at least every component isn't soldered to your "logic board".

It comes at a cost of larger and heavier laptops, but the XPS 13 Developer Edition I write this on is small, runs Linux, and has a beautiful display and a real keyboard I don't absolutely hate. Even Linus likes it.

I am slowly turning back towards Dell for almost all my main computing accessories (laptop/monitor).

Re: Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

#180

Post by addicted » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

tomduncalf wrote: post #86

darklajid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on Windows, so there's that. I constantly (multiple times a day) use F1 (help, least used), F3 (search again, next match), F4 (both for the famous close window shortcut and to get to the explorer address bar), F5 (reload in browser, run in other apps), F9 (toggle breakpoint in VS), F10 (step over in VS), F11 (step into in VS). Occasionally F8, F12. Couldn't live without those, I guess, and I can find all of those…

Ahh yes, function key use is much more prevalent in Windows for whatever reason. On the Mac most of those shortcuts have always been Cmd+letter instead (e.g. Cmd-R = refresh, Cmd-W = close window, Cmd-Q = close app, Cmd-F = find), so perhaps that is why Apple see the Fn keys as expendable. On the debug thing, having the debug controls on the Touch Bar with XCode (available from any app) is one of the few actually def…

Wouldn’t having the debug controls on Fn keys like on VS on Windows be even more useful since you get tactile feedback as well?

The major advantage of the touchpad that I can see is for someone who is new to the app, since it increases discoverability if shortcut keys. However this problem was already solved using toolbars. There may be a few apps where the screen real estate may be too expensive to lose to toolbars, but I can’t really think of any where simply fading the toolbars in isn’t a better solution. Maybe 4ak video editing is a better option?

I’d also imagine controls where scrubbing is better might benefit from the touchbar, but again, that’s probably better handled by the touchpad which is far more ergonomically accessible than the touchbar.