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Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

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Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#171

Post by int_19h »

pamqzl wrote: post #138
tray5 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Left-anarchists assume that if you get rid of the government the world becomes a left-wing utopia, while right-anarchists assume that if you get rid of the government then the world becomes a right-wing utopia. I'd say you're strawmanning both sides here, left anarchists know the state grows out of the conflicting class interests of the working class and capitalist class, and that abolition of the state necessarily…

> left anarchists know the state grows out of the conflicting class interests of the working class and capitalist class > Propertarians believe that if you got rid of the government, the free market will sort things out because it's the gov. interference in private enterprise that causes societies conflicts I think you've just given a slightly better summary of the magical thinking of each, rather than fundamentally…

> Partially this disagreement is simply about the meaning of the word "capitalism"

Does it, though? If you use the classic Marxist definition of capitalism as "private ownership of the means of production", I don't think either ancaps or left anarchists would fundamentally disagree with it. And both would believe, based on their premises on property (natural right vs social construct), that removing the government from the equation would result in their desired endgame wrt capitalism based on this definition. For left-anarchists, if you remove the government, you also remove any and all private property rights, by definition (since they're a creation of the government) - obviously, this would include property rights on the means of production, and such a society would then not be capitalist. Ancaps, OTOH, believe that governments impede natural property rights, and thus a society without a government would have the strongest possible private ownership of the means of production - i.e. capitalism in its purest form.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#172

Post by int_19h »

tray5 wrote: post #31
SapphireSun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty confusing, but it seems to me that the uniting factor between the anarchists and the statist left is a common belief in human freedom from hierarchical structures, but each chooses different method to implement it.

This is very much the truth, anarchists and communists want the same thing, a communist society, they just disagree fundamentally on how to do it. That's why you see them join forces and fight together, like in the Russian Revolution and Spanish civil war

Both examples famous for communists eventually turning on and slaughtering anarchists, I must add.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#173

Post by likeslogic »

int_19h wrote: post #164
likeslogic wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say in a 100% tolerant society a group that is intolerant of every other group comes into existence. They just operate by the credo - you're either with us, or the enemy, and all enemies must be destroyed. No further logic can be applied (they may even declare all logic as one of the enemies). Now if as a society you tolerate them without the use of force, they will try to destroy everyone else who is not part…

The problem with this paradox is that it's applied to situations that are actually different from what's describe here. Suppose even we have this group that's intolerant of everyone else. But their intolerance is expressed in speech, not actions. In other words, they're saying, "you're all our enemies, and should be destroyed", but they aren't doing anything about it. Or maybe they are, but it consists of running a p…

What about constant verbal abuse? Or - as in this particular case - the right to bombard (or drown) any useful discussion? Should that be tolerated? I don't know.

For some people this kind of online attacking and lack of freedom to communicate (through effective trolling) may be worse than physical abuse. In the end its the brain interpreting signals and outputting pain.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#174

Post by pamqzl »

tray5 wrote: post #93
wutbrodo wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating left as if it has some inherent, context-free meaning is ridiculous. If you're going to define a spectrum, the context matters, and the context we're currently discussing is American politics. You may as well say that American politics only contains extreme leftists, when compared to the rest of American history.

Sure it is, leftism occupies a spectrum of economic and social ideals, which the US left (led by the DNC) falls uniformly outside that spectrum. I mean Monarchists are left of fascists, but that doesn't make monarchists leftist just because you compare them to something further right. Just because your system is dominated by capitalists doesn't make the rest of the spectrum irrelevant, and redefining the conversation…

> Sure it is, leftism occupies a spectrum of economic and social ideals, which the US left (led by the DNC) falls uniformly outside that spectrum

No it doesn't. I mean the single-axis "left" and "right" classification is fairly meaningless to begin with, but you don't get to be the one who decides where is where.

>I mean Monarchists are left of fascists

Not really. I mean, this is another example of where the "left-right spectrum" is completely useless. It's like asking whether Mars is north of Winnipeg. Monarchism and fascism aren't even the same type of idea.

> The American left is not left when considering the entire spectrum of left-right political ideas

What is the "entire spectrum" of ideas? What's the left-most possible idea you can think of? What's the right-most possible idea? What's the exact centre? You can't define these things, because the spectrum is meaningless. But if you're talking in the context of American politics, then you can put "the centre" roughly in the middle of what the general opinion of the population believes, i.e. somewhere between Republicans and Democrats, and work from there.

Trying to compare between different countries is fraught with difficulties, however, because the relevant issues are very different in different countries. Let's compare the US to Australia, for instance. In Australia, both major parties and the majority of the population are in agreement on the idea of universal government-funded medical care, which puts them to the left side of US politics. On the other hand, in Australia both major parties are in agreement that any illegal immigrant found in the country should be deported, which puts them both to the right side of US politics. The Australian position on gun control would be left-wing in the US, while the Australian position on inheritance taxes would be right-wing. It's simply not possible to say one is left or right of the other, because the controversial issues are very different.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#175

Post by pamqzl »

chasing wrote: post #57

You know why Reddit and Twitter became some toxic environments? Because they're not designed for healthy community development. And neither is this. It's a mindless clone and it already looks like it's turning toxic.

If there's one neologism I'd love to get rid of, it's the use of "toxic" to describe speech that you dislike. It's all over this thread.

Think about what the metaphor of "toxicity" does for speech. By all means, you can find speech to be disagreeable, or annoying, or factually or morally wrong. I read all sorts of things that I disagree with, and some that I find actively annoying. But the metaphor of "toxicity" implies something more -- that these ideas are actually dangerous, and some kind of public health hazard. If something is "toxic" then you don't just dislike it, you need to actively protect yourself from being contaminated with it, and it activates your disgust reflexes. After all, better to be safe than sorry when it comes to toxins, right?

Basically, the idea that ideas can be "toxic" seems to be a roundabout way of inviting censors to come in and save us all from the danger of having to read things that we don't like.

Let's ditch the word "toxic" for things that aren't actually harmful chemicals, and learn to deal with the fact that things we don't like on the internet are best dealt with by not reading them.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#177

Post by mszcz »

int_19h wrote: post #164
likeslogic wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say in a 100% tolerant society a group that is intolerant of every other group comes into existence. They just operate by the credo - you're either with us, or the enemy, and all enemies must be destroyed. No further logic can be applied (they may even declare all logic as one of the enemies). Now if as a society you tolerate them without the use of force, they will try to destroy everyone else who is not part…

The problem with this paradox is that it's applied to situations that are actually different from what's describe here. Suppose even we have this group that's intolerant of everyone else. But their intolerance is expressed in speech, not actions. In other words, they're saying, "you're all our enemies, and should be destroyed", but they aren't doing anything about it. Or maybe they are, but it consists of running a p…

I have a feeling that that kind of speech, given enough time and tolerance, eventually might escalate to action.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#178

Post by zimpenfish »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #159
zimpenfish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at the moment if you do not agree with Antifa/SJW crowd you are automatically labeled a Nazi This just isn't true no matter how many times people say it.

I only speak from experience. I've been called a Nazi scum for advocating civil behavior, refraining from violence and doxxing, and siding with free speech for everyone. People have even straight up assumed I was a (poorly hidden) KKK member because my user name has the word "wizard" in it.

> I've been called a Nazi scum for advocating civil behavior, refraining from violence and doxxing, and siding with free speech for everyone.

You know that's going to require more than anecdotal evidence though, right?

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#179

Post by zichy »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #167
enraged_camel wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, many people conflate Freedom of Speech with free speech. The former is the constitutionally protected freedom from government persecution (e.g. imprisonment) based on what you say. The latter is the misguided belief that you should be allowed to say whatever you want in public without consequence. I strongly believe it is morally wrong to side with people who support genocide, and whose predecessors hav…

Yet no Nazi symbolism or chants were present in the Alt-Right's ranks before Antifa started to organize Black Blocks and turned protests violent. Remember this whole cycle started by grown adults wanting special treatment, such as safe spaces and forced usage special pronouns, and people who were against such non-sense.

This is the worst comment I've read in a long while. Political discussions on HN are the worst.

Re: Raddit: An open source alternative to Reddit

#180

Post by zichy »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #159
zimpenfish wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at the moment if you do not agree with Antifa/SJW crowd you are automatically labeled a Nazi This just isn't true no matter how many times people say it.

I only speak from experience. I've been called a Nazi scum for advocating civil behavior, refraining from violence and doxxing, and siding with free speech for everyone. People have even straight up assumed I was a (poorly hidden) KKK member because my user name has the word "wizard" in it.

>I've been called a Nazi scum for advocating civil behavior

Assuming that this is your account, do you call this misogynic shit "civil behavior"?

https://twitter.com/nextlevelwizard/status/71492088722555289...

https://twitter.com/nextlevelwizard/status/71490655573344665...

Spending time with games, anime and 4chan memes doesn't qualify for a political discourse.

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