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Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

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Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#171

Post by _kyjg »

echaozh wrote: post #143
bhouston wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In real-life, outside of 10,000 word github issues, one should call those you are having problems with and talk about it. That is how you resolve these issues. You show empathy, you show understanding, you take more responsibility that you deserve because you have a strong ego, you focus on the future and how best to achieve joint success, you show some flexibility, you get a mutually beneficial resolution or an agre…

When people defame you in the public, to talk to people in the private don't solve all the problems. The public need to hear from both sides. You don't like to hear the defense, all right. Just don't try to stop other people from hearing it.

bhouston's statements are far more nuanced than saying that they don't want to hear the defense or attempting to prevent others from hearing it.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#172

Post by thehardsphere »

gaius wrote: post #161
thehardsphere wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your manager is aware enough of the situation to know there is a fork, but is not aware enough to know that the fork is pure politics, it might be time to change managers. That is such an odd superposition of being simultaneously informed and not that one couldn't help but wonder what other strategic mistakes would happen.

News of this has made mainstream tech news sites like El Reg. That's how I originally heard about it, I don't do much Github these days.

If your manager is relying on mainstream news to inform decisions regarding their product's primary software dependency, it might be time to change managers.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#173

Post by foota »

orless wrote: post #65
sulam wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This as least is something I can understand (and it seems he understands it too, as he apologized for it). When you're not involved in a discussion, are in a leadership position, and apologize to someone for the outcome of the discussion, you are undercutting the authority of the people involved in that discussion, the decision they made, and the entire organizational process that produced the decision.

Yes I get it that he may have stepped over other moderators, I can understand this. But how is that in violation with Code of Conduct, exactly? Just don't say it is "Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting". https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

I would go with:

- "Focusing on what is best for the community"

- "Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting" (yes you said not to but it does apply)

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#174

Post by orless »

thehardsphere wrote: post #172
gaius wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News of this has made mainstream tech news sites like El Reg. That's how I originally heard about it, I don't do much Github these days.

If your manager is relying on mainstream news to inform decisions regarding their product's primary software dependency , it might be time to change managers.

Since it is so serious, I promise I will change the imaginary managery from the thought experiment.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#175

Post by kremlin »

x0x0 wrote: post #131
kbenson wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, as I see it, an unfortunate side effect of vastly under valuing intent and over valuing individual interpretations and how they make people feel. There needs to be a balance, and when there's not you end up with problems. If that's what happened in this case, it might have resulted in fault being a much more nebulous concept to those people. It's possible he said some things which ended up hurting people's f…

Four people resigned from the whatever-board when Rob was not asked to leave, and have written elsewhere about their repeated interactions with him. The fact that the four of them basically decided they don't wish to work in an org that Rob works in speaks (imo obviously) to him being a relatively unpleasant person to be around. Also, I'm skeptical that four people all are blowing things out of proportion, but who kn…

I'm not. Several of the people in the centre of this drama have a number of Twitter posts saying things like "kill all men" and "all men are terrible" etc. I'm completely willing to believe that these 4 people have a lot of fun, and a lot of invested identity, in being "offended" by things white men do. It doesn't reflect on his character all that much to me.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#176

Post by albedoa »

GenericsMotors wrote: post #115
geofft wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah - his response was definitely reasonable if the facts are that the supposed evidence against him was trumped up and he's in the right. I'm just trying to figure out if his response is also what I'd expect to see if the facts are that the supposed evidence against him is completely accurate and that he's a toxic contributor who's trying to hurt the project.

So he is condemned in your eyes, not matter what evidence is presented?

lol what? Did you reply to the wrong comment?

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#177

Post by CrystalLangUser »

bhouston wrote: post #162
echaozh wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people defame you in the public, to talk to people in the private don't solve all the problems. The public need to hear from both sides. You don't like to hear the defense, all right. Just don't try to stop other people from hearing it.

> When people defame you in the public, to talk to people in the private don't solve all the problems. The public need to hear from both sides. Only if you want to run a negative sum game for all involved. This is a horrible strategy to engage in. You only end up also wrecking your own reputation and others and wasting a ton of time. The socially mature thing to do is resolve this behind closed doors and be flexible…

Once someone drags your name through the mud in public, it's well past the point of having a private chat. His behavior isn't a huge red flag in the slightest; he's responding to what's essentially a public attack of his character. Responding to something like that publicly when it's already a public situation isn't a form of aggression.

You are projecting WAY too much of your own bias and opinion into what was simply a response. It's telling that you're suggesting he needs to have social maturity when the allegations levied against him are pretty unsubstantiated- see the "evidence" of him retweeting an article discussing free speech concerns on college campuses.

Are you genuinely so obtuse as to scorn a man who's attempting to merely respond to being accused of something?

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#178

Post by bhouston »

CrystalLangUser wrote: post #177
bhouston wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people defame you in the public, to talk to people in the private don't solve all the problems. The public need to hear from both sides. Only if you want to run a negative sum game for all involved. This is a horrible strategy to engage in. You only end up also wrecking your own reputation and others and wasting a ton of time. The socially mature thing to do is resolve this behind closed doors and be flexible…

Once someone drags your name through the mud in public , it's well past the point of having a private chat. His behavior isn't a huge red flag in the slightest; he's responding to what's essentially a public attack of his character. Responding to something like that publicly when it's already a public situation isn't a form of aggression. You are projecting WAY too much of your own bias and opinion into what was simp…

If the allegations were unsubstantiated it would not have gotten this far, especially if he dealt with this in a mature fashion by engaging and showing he is just a reasonable person. If they were totally unsubstantiated the only way it would get to this point is because he dealt with it in the worst ways possiblle.

People wouldn't have quit to make what is essentially a useless fork if it were truly unsubstantiated. Those people are truly angry about what happened. This means there was something to resolve but it wasn't resolved, we just get grandstanding and massive effort into polemical defenses.

He tactically argues like a really smart guy, but his overall strategy is the wrong one.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#179

Post by adrienne »

reaperducer wrote: post #56
chis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert, but it seems within the realm of possibility. Despite what hackernews thinks, the forkers have a somewhat reasonable argument, in that Vagg did violate the Code of Conduct (because it is extreme), and the committee voted to ignore it (because he's a valuable contributor). Morality aside, it calls the system into question if someone can violate established rules and get away with it because the judg…

> it calls the system into question if someone can violate established rules and get away with it because the judges disagree with the rules. Welcome to adulthood, corporate life, and the real world. It's not fair. It's not designed to be fair. It's not intended to be fair. It's never been fair. You just pull up your big boy pants and deal with it.

Which is exactly what these people are doing; pulling up their big boy (and big girl, and big enby) pants and dealing with it by forking the project.

Re: Rod Vagg's statement on the request to be removed from the Node.js CTC

#180

Post by CrystalLangUser »

bhouston wrote: post #178
CrystalLangUser wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once someone drags your name through the mud in public , it's well past the point of having a private chat. His behavior isn't a huge red flag in the slightest; he's responding to what's essentially a public attack of his character. Responding to something like that publicly when it's already a public situation isn't a form of aggression. You are projecting WAY too much of your own bias and opinion into what was simp…

If the allegations were unsubstantiated it would not have gotten this far, especially if he dealt with this in a mature fashion by engaging and showing he is just a reasonable person. If they were totally unsubstantiated the only way it would get to this point is because he dealt with it in the worst ways possiblle. People wouldn't have quit to make what is essentially a useless fork if it were truly unsubstantiated.…

If it was substantiated there would be evidence. I see nothing beyond inane things that aren't worth this fuss.

It seems like another example of CoCs being used maliciously to hunt someone out of bias.

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